I mean from everything I have read, not only is the B18C a stronger engine but VTEC makes quite a bit of a difference. I have searched and read countless posts on B18B turbo's but it just doesnt make sense to me. I thought the B18B had a lower torque curve than the B18C but does that really help when turbocharging?

 

I would say that it depends on what you are doing. Every day driver, then the B18C would be better. Full on drag racing, it doesnt matter.
Look at what vtec does for you... allows for decent profiles at low and high RPM's. If you are racing, why would you be at low r's? You would tac it and keep it there. What is the use of vtec then? If you drop below the vtec range during a race, then something is messed up. So you are riding on the high side all the time. How would this be different than a b18b with a good cam and the proper parts to make it breathe right?

My 2 coppers anyways...

 

it also depends on how much of a buildup you're willing to do beforehand. if you want to boost on stock internals, you can boost more with the LS (b18a/b) than with the GSR (b18c) due to lower compression......but if you're building the engine with new internals, um, well i'll let someone else answer cause i'm not a boost guy. i just know that the lower compression of the ls is better for stock boosting.

 

Here is why I think the B18B would be better, someone please tell me I'm a dumbass and prove me wrong:

A B18B has "more" torque but lacks in the high end, so It would pull really hard and then with a turbo it would pull in the high end no matter what.

Now a B18C is better for top end power so it would be slower orignally but then up top it would be way faster?

Someone please tell me why my reasoning is wrong.

 

If you are going to all out build the motor, than it doesnt matter what you start with, whichever you can aquire cheepest would be ideal. B18c (because of better oiling characteristics) will hold higher revs more consitantly, which is better for an NA motor from the factory, B18b (because of lower stock compression and slightly longer stroke) tends to take boost better from the factory. Once again, I restate, that if it will be full built, it's just a personal and money issue.

 

What is considered fully built? Rods pistons and cams?

 

The b18b has a longer stroke, so this means more torque available. However, where this gets dangerous is in the higher RPM's. You have mass moving a greater distance, which is greater stress to those parts, and also greater inertial mass to overcome (less top-end). So, yes, a b18b COULD be much faster on the top and lower end, given the right cams, crank, connecting rods, pistons, etc.. then with all that in place with proper breathing, a b18b would be initially faster off the line, with a nice peaky rev range.
The compression of the stock motor is 9.2, so you can boost it more with readily available fuel. However, the less the moving mass, the greater topend revs you can get out of your machine. B18C have less than a B18B... and conversely, a B16A has even less, with same bore. More revs=more power? Not necessarily... I think it is a matter of the driver and the habit. Like tons of revs? Can you keep em there during shifts and launch? If not, then torque will win on the launch... once you are going, that is a different story... and if you can keep the revs up.. can you keep the rubber matched?

So, IMHO, LSVTEC!!!

 

...somebody finally got it right, thank you.

 

has anyone else ever heard the phrase "VTEC was originally created for better fuel economy", this is the theory behind VTEC killer cams/lifters, and why myself and about 5 other "non-conformist" in my area have chosen Non-Vtec engines as a platform for race motors, but this also costs high dollars, and takes serious research to get it right.

 

But the thing is, when accelerating (lets say in the 1/4 for instance) you arent always in VTEC, which Is why I think the B18B would be better than the B18C, but from a roll its a different story, correct?

 

That is exactly what VTEC gives you.. decent power top and bottom... The reason?
It goes into the basics of how your powerplant works. Lift, duration, etc... they are RPM relevant, and tuned to certain RPM's for ceratin horsepower/fuel economy characteristics. A cam that is perfect at 8K, will pretty much completely suck at 2K. So VTEC tries, and fairly well delivers, to give you the best of both worlds... different lift, duration etc.. at key RPM ranges... 2 Cam profiles for 2 different RPM ranges.
So yes, technically, it is for fuel economy. But examine what the market wants. More power, faster cars, while still getting >35MPG. If you kept your car at 5K plus all the time, you would not get those numbers. You would more than likely get about <25 or so MPG. VTEC was for "Power when you need it..." Conservative cam lobes for the low end, nicer cam lobes for the top end for extra power. Both make the powerplant more efficient at their ranges. However, if Honda engineers are ever forced to make compromises, it is in the favor of clean emissions and fuel economy.

 

Assuming you are clutch engaged, and just mashing the accelerator in lower RPM's, then yes the B18B would be faster until VTEC kicked. However, from your statement of the 1/4, wouldn't you tac into the VTEC range for launch? Assuming you have proper rubber for the launch, and a good clutch, then you would feather the clutch keeping it in VTEC until fully engaged. The same as if you had a built drag motor (top R's, hope the tires hold good, and feather as needed.) Now alot is up to the drivers and their habits. However, torque off the line, clutch engaged or not, will always win. Think of a Harley taking on a GSR. Off the line, the Harley would stomp it. But once the GSR hits its sweet spot, then bye bye Harley. Imagine a Harley with VTEC...

 

You're bringing up really good points, its nice to have intelectual conversations on H-T for a change. But what it comes down to I guess is, would it be noticably faster with a boosted B18C vs a boosted B18B?

 

i feel for boost...a ls motor would do just fine as compared to a gsr..however, i believe many more people swap in a b18b and turbo it because of the fact that its WAAAAAy cheaper...same amount of torque more or less with the 1.8L..and then the high end can vary according to your turbo set up..

but anyways, ill let the "vtec experts" and compression guru's, etc explain why its better or not..but for me, i feel the b18b's price outweighs any "advantage" from the gsr, if there are any

 

Loaded question!
Depends on the situation... it takes a bit for boost to build properly. So, are you at low or high vtec/RPM ranges? On stock motors, it would be a really tight race. IMHO, it would come down to the drivers. Torque off the line would give the LS an advantage. Higher boost on the LS would help as well. However, better upper end cam timings on the VTEC would give the VTEC the edge through the rest. Given identical drivers on stock motors, the edge would be the VTEC motor. However, built out, the LS would edge out the VTEC if you could keep it in its sweet spot. Now under a race course, not 1/4, the VTEC would beat it out, due to the varying ranges of RPM's that you would be forced to undertake depending on the course. When you get into ultra performance like this, the driver method and habits really play more than the motor. Higher lower end torque would help out of turns. Better driver correction is VTEC.
However, all that said, more torque, with a tightly tuned engine for your RPM range, will win. You can build close to the same HP at the top end with a built LS motor as you can with a built VTEC motor, but you have the advantage of the increased stroke. Stroke equates roughly to torque.
More torque, more instant the response of your HP.

 

Finally, a newbie that isnt asking about JDM airbags or something. I think you are right Tru Dynamix about the fact that reason people use the B18B is because of cost reasons.

I still have one more question:
I'm currently looking for a hatch to buy and I am planning on swapping an engine and later putting on a Drag Gen 3 turbo kit. I wouldn't really be able to notice the difference between a B18C and B18B in terms of performance correct? I figure they are both fast as hell and the money Id save one a B18B would put me $1100 closer to the Drag 3.

 

in two words:

lower compression

 

lower compression = less power no matter how you slice it

when bolting on a drag turbo kit compression isnt a big concern untill you want to boost higher psi

 

stock for stock you can boost higher on the b18b then the b18c because of compresion.. but if your only gonna be boosting like 5 - 10 psi b18c would be better.. 10 might be a little high for stock internals but hey, its not my engine :D

edit: damn typos


[Modified by Hatchy-Ownzjo0, 11:49 AM 8/24/2002]

 

not true the only thing lower compression has to do w/ besides lower hp is......less resistance to denotation.... i've seen plenty of b16/b18c run up to 18 psi on stock internals....race fuel and tunning...a turbo b18c will walk away from a turbo b18b given the "stock vs stock" argument. and for a street car is makes more sence to go w/ a built vtec turbo because you can have some thing a built ls turbo doesn't have .....an idle and around town driveabilty. ever see a built dsm?? it sucks down gas like it's going out of style and it idle almost rattles the car apart or at least makes it's passengers feel see sick. a couple of my friends have built gsr's over 300whp and they drive/idle and sound (at least at idle) like stock.

 

I'd say go with the b18b because of COST. Way cheaper than b18c. But , like everyone says, what do you want? Full out drag car or around town drivability? I personally was going to go with b18b and I did. Just haven't turboed yet because of lack of cash . So, I read up there somewhere that b18c would be better for around town drivablility. I drive about 60-90 miles per day regularly. About once a week i get about 10 miles that day. Sometimes but not often i dont' even go anywhere. Let me just put it to you this way. I have a SERIOUS relationship 30 miles away. Which setup would be the best for me? I want reliability 1st because i often take trips to TEXAS too. That's 800 miles 1 way. I take these trips about 1-3 times a year. Which engine should i have that will allow me to make the most power, without sacrificing the reliability? Thanks for all ur input.

 

YOu have to disengage Vtec while Turbo kicks in so waht's the point to have Vtec?
higher the PSI you run, less the Vtec point you stay on. due to overRev and blow the motor(correct me if i am wrong)

So i would say go with B18B nonVtec's but then again with B20's it's even better
Screwed turbo Vtec motors

 

I will be the first one to drop the on you. there is NO "disengaging" of VTEC when you put on a t3/t4. bottom line: if you take a b18c and boost it, take a b18b and boost it, same psi, the b18c will win. lower compression=lower power, as someone stated before. the b18b is not SO good for turbo...lower compression might make it safer for someone to run a turbo on. im glad to see that the tranny issue hasn't come to light...because many people here seem to believe that longer gears will "keep you in boost longer" which will make you faster. BS.

 

i was about to mention the fact that no one has said anything about trannies. Why don't longer gears help to lengthen boost time? I would expect that it does, please explain your theory. The LS is safer to boost because of it's lower compression and slightly larger displacement.

 

LS is better for stock boostin. youll make power at the same boost as a gsr... but the ls can boost more safely on stock internals. lots of torque too!