I think that this issue may help cut down on the number of cam posts, but then again I am using. A bit of reasoning which seems o be rare anymore.

What do you consider a stage 1 engine?

What do you consider a stage 2 engine?

What do you consider a stage 3 engine?

Is a stage 3 motor a race engine?

Understanding that each increse in "stage" also is a step down in reliability and lifespan of the engine

With as many suessfull builds on the board there should be lttle question of what does and what does not work well together.

Omni gave us all a complete buleprint of how to build a 200hp B16 but how many have we actually seen?

 

I blame it on the video games, lol.....but yeah a stg 3 motor to me would indicate a race orriented setup. Anything beyond 3 seems to be a marketing term for selling parts.

To me you either have stock/mild add-ons (stg1), moderately build/performance street (stg2), and then race (stg3).

 

It really depend on who build the engine and consider which ever is a stage.

 

Its all on the Tune..

 

If the engine is built properly, some may get better results with a more knowlage able tuner or builder. If I had asked what does it take to get 200hp from a b16 you would be on track.

 

Different Tuners can get different numbers on the same engine build... some better than others

 

so you're going to lump walter mckinney's prelude, rotten's civic, and nah2b's civic all in the same bundle?

they're all 3 entirely different but are all still "race motors"

stages are retarded especially since every manufacturer uses different stages, none of which mean anything outside of that manufacturer.

and what about skunk 2, they have tuner and pro stage products, what does that throw into the mix?

this isn't an srt4 where you can go to the dealer and say i want a stage X car

 

the whole stage thing drives me a bit bananas honestly. you are not comparing apples to apples when talking "stages"

generally parts get more toward the race scale as they go up in stages but there really is no standard between manufacturers,etc. they're just marketing terms

I'm surprised the "3/4s" race cam hasn't made it to the import scene yet. lol

just my .02
m.

 

You with the exception of marcin are missing my point entirely. What was meant to shy the newb away from a stage 3 cam on a stock motor has turned into mass confusion.

 

Right, there still race motors prepped, machined, and built for there intended purpose even though they may differ in terms of powerband and power output characteristics.

Exactly. For the most part its just marketing terminology that can differ from one manufacturer to the next based on generalized scenarios for driving conditions (street, street/strip, strip, circle track, etc).

Natural Aspirations brings up a good question though, and that is what a keeps the unknowing or unknowledgable from choosing the biggest cam, or getting the biggest flow package for a ported head when the user might only be doing daily driving with a little sprited driving every now and then?

 

two words: gran turismo

 

wow..

There are definite different levels you can take your build to... but you can't define them with Stage's


Good old video games right up there with speed channel

 

I guess my wording was wrong for my intent, was riding in a car posting over my phone. I agree the term "stage" is used quite loosely, and used improperly quite often.

What I was trying to get to was how upgrades should (IMO) follow to get the better result for the dollar spent.

Level 1 motor, Stock internal/Bolt on B16/GSR/LSV/B20V
Good cam choices
S2 Stage 1 or equivalent
BC3+
RM M21

Level 2 Motor, ITR or GSR/LSV/B20V with moderate modifications (Intake Manifold/Raised compression/Good Header and Exahust)
S2S2
S2P1
BCIV
RM M22x or xx

Level 3 Motor
High Compression/Ported Head/Custom built motors
S2P2
BC5/6
RM M24x or xx

Race Motor, something that is not meant for daily transportation does not see a lot of road use. Yes, to some a stock d15 is a race motor so take this how ever you wish. To me a race motor has one purpose.

This does not take into consideration any tuning because all motors to achieve their best results must be dyno tuned. Any my use of stage is also meant to be taken very loosely, maybe someone else can take the time to make a better post that understands my intent. These are only my opinions, seem to have done me well thus far. And lets face it 98% of the posts would be perfectly fine with nothing more than the level 2

 

to try to answer your questions more directly. in my opinion.

What do you consider a stage 1 engine?
-bolt-ons and maybe a mild cam

What do you consider a stage 2 engine?
-hotter cam upgrade, full bolt-ons, maybe a compression increase

What do you consider a stage 3 engine?
-high but steerable compression, worked head, hot cam, maybe itb's, etc. built motor essentially

Is a stage 3 motor a race engine?
i would say no, a hot street motor yes. Race motors are beyond these categories in my opinion because they can vary a lot depending on the application, are usually designed for a very specific power band, and are generally not street able. the most compromises are made toward the ultimate goal/purpose.

just my .02

 

M.
Good points.

What I would like to see is something that would help make an appropriate cam choice. Not a set rule just guidance toward an informed decision. A cookbook if you will (which already exists in the dyno thread) to known good performers. A cam guide?

I actually got a PM asking where to find information on OMNI's B16 build, so no matter how much information is posted I am sure it will not help.

 

I think everyone is going to have there own idea of what each stage means. To me I'd say

Stg1
Stock motor with bolt-on's
mild cam
larger then stock exhaust
CAI/hi flow filter

Stg2 (IMO your majority of street/strip motors)
Higher compression
more agressive cam
Larger intake & TB
Performance orriented header & larger exhaust
larger injectors

Stg3
All of the above from stg2
Bottom end reinforcements (high tensile mainstuds, headstuds, sleeves, etc)
Non-oem range bearing clearances, blueprinting dependant on race application
Lighter pulleys
Rotating assembley preparation (knife edge crank, balanced rods & pistons, etc)
Open exhaust
Cam that is tailored for mid-high rpm performance, usually poor idle quality

 

thanks NA.
i think cam wise your pretty on target with what you wrote.

Interestingly enough the Jun3 profile and all the copies seem to work well across the entire range of builds.

My personal experience on friends motors with this cam has been
-a stock bottom end gsr with full boltons that HAULED *** 160+mph highway runs
-a jdm type r motor with stock bottom end and boltons that got to 200whp and ran a 12.9 with a average driver. 92 hatchback.

I have seen on here that that profile seems to fit many builds from mild to extreme and a lot of people swear by it. Not to mention how much it has been copied and how it has been used as a benchmark for other cams. IMHO its probably the most well suited and most versatile profiles made for the honda B. Although there is a lot of great new stuff out there now too.

and to be a bit of a ricer... the changeover on a jun3 b series is pure sex

 

There is no such thing as stages. There are valve lift profiles which need certain intake flow, compression and exhaust flow to take advantage of its profile. You can't just take a bunch of parts and put them together and pray they work. It doesn't work like that. You don't even have to know pulse lengths or anything real indepth. If you know how to read a dyno graph and have a general undersynding of engine theory then anyone can put together a solid build. But no, you get 16 year olds who want itb's because they are hip and the same kind of people who buy **** just to make their mod list bigger because the bigge mod list you have the faster your car is....

 

It's a marketing term only and makes a difference within an individual manufacturer only. There are no standard 'stages'.

 

Stage 1: stock; it runs fine.

Stage 2: slightly e-racer modified; still runs, just not so well.

Stage 3: heavily e-racer modified; best case, just won't start. Worst, valves closed by pistons, rods through side of block. Either way, we'll be reading about it on H-T.

 

can i please get a stage 10? ;-)

 

If it has an RLZ head, its automatically STAGE 3.

All other heads, Stage 2, except for a CC head, which is 2.5.

 

If it was previously in 2 other stages, and you change the stage again, it is then in it's 3rd stage.

 

Just got my stage 3 engine done.

Plus stage 4 turbo



VTEC pull like mother f**ker.

 

so where do the crower cams fall into this category?? Cuz they have regular cams and race cams.. so would the crower 403s fall into the level 2 category??