Hello (sorry for my english)

I have a 1.6L 99-00 Civic Ek4. My engine is a b16a2. I usually read post, experiences and try to learn by my way but now need some advise. My actually configuration is:

- Injen CAI
- Toda Racing exhaust header
- Ramdom-tech 2.5" 100cell cat
- Buddy Club Spec II 2.5" exhaust system with HKS universal 2.5" muffler
- P28 whit Hondata S300
- Exedy Clutch Stage 1

I'm thinking in go to next step 1.8 or 2.0L possible (pistons,cams,valves,etc), but is a little expensive for me at the moment.

My question is what thinks could i do to have better results for now, thinking in go higher in the future? (I am open to any possibility)


Many thanks for all anyway.
Best regards. Ciaoo.

 

You have good supporting modifications but you don't have cams, that would make a decent difference.

 

Ok, but i thinked that to have better results with cam's i would need valves, spring, camgear, etc. But is usable for me before change pistons?

Would be a good option a complete camshaft a bigger TB and better IM, before pistons?

The another problem here is the tuning, there aren't tuners where i live and i'm trying to get some knowledge, i'm thinking in buy a permanent installed wideband to try to tune my fuel maps but for ignitions maps i would need a loaded dyno, or no? (how a camgear can help to my configuration?)

I forget to say that all af the rest of the engine is rigorously stock, many people speak obout little changes to go better results like "tricks" but, i don't trust about nothing that were strictly tested and dynoed before.


Many thanks. Ciaoo.

 

well with cams you would usually buy valvesprings and adjustable cam gears to help tune them. You wouldn't normally need valves unless there's something wrong with yours or they have high mileage on them. If there aren't many tuners in your area, stick with a set of cams like skunk 2 TUNER stage 2 cams. They'll work well on your setup and on a larger 1.8L or 2L if you go that big later and are fairly easy to tune. If you can't tune on a dyno, I would install a wideband to help you with the air/fuel tuning.

The stock throttle body and intake manifold will work very well as they are and do not need to be changed just yet.

 

Ok, so i could buy a complete camshaft thinking in new high comp valves or there aren't much necessary?

What is the useful difference between Tuner's and Pro series?
With tuner's cams and camgear would be easy to tune,there's a good starting point of reference?
With that cams,camgear and valve springs would change all?(vtec point, redline, afr)
What would be a good afr for my setup and how can tune my ingnitions maps?

Many thanks for all. Sorry for the amount of questions.

Thanks. Ciaoo.

 

it's less expensive to use a 2 layer headgasket than change valves. Change your valves if you need to, not to raise compression.

Tuners have stock like primary lobes which are easier to tune. Pro Series have larger primary lobes which will make more low and mid-range power but are harder to tune.

Easier, yes. If you buy the cams new, they come with instructions on where to set them initially. If you buy them used, you can still get the information you need from Skunk. The bottom line is that you will need a dyno to ultimately determine where they should be set.

All of those things will change to some degree, again the best way to determine those things are using a street tune and a dyno ideally.

The afr will vary at different rpms and throttle positions (loads) as will the timing maps. It would be impossible for me to tell you what those settings will be since there are a number of factors that can affect those things. If I were you I would contact someone like MTBER on this board and see if you can purchase a basemap for your setup and then you should only have to make some fine tuning adjustments when you get it installed.

 

Ok, then i would buy skunk2 tuners cams, springs and camgear then.

I would try speak with someone like you say that can sell me a good basemap, and try to start tuning with and AFR sensor.

I will start working in that, many thanks for all, there many people how only like to speak of how fast is his car and how to easy is to buy sometings to do like magic hp's. Many thanks for advice me, realy grateful.

I will tell when i get it.

Best regards.Ciao.

(Rev or get bored)

 

Skunk 2 tuner 2 cams will NOT work well on a stock compression b16a2 like yours

you need to either mill your pr3 head 0.4 to 0.5 mm to get close to 10,8-10,9:1 (you need much more to have good results in a 1.6 liter , 11:1 will be just decent (low rpm performance will probably be crap and you're gonna have a very peaky curve on the dyno)

You also need to throw away the stock intake manifold for anything that wants to have peak at higher than stock rpms.
Get an Integra type R intake manifold

Be also aware that when you say AFR sensor you need a wideband and not the crappy air fuel meters that work with stock narrowband sensors (since you have s300 A/F and ignition tuning is going to be easy)

Keep in mind that the STOCK b16a2 block is not safe to rev higher than 8700-8800 (depends on how long you want it to live)

 

svistras, I'd be interested in knowing what experience you've had to give credibility to the advice you gave.

For starters, have you ever run S2S2's on a b16a before with stock compression?

 

It is not of the topic's interest, but since I have to verify my experience on what I suggest,

I've had a b16a jdm motor since 2003. I went through I-H-E stage, tuned it myself using crome, went on several dynos.

Then got BC3+ cams, valvesprings, camgears, milled the head to get something close to 10,6:1 compression, dialed in the cams, tuned, went on dynos, had this setup for about 1 year

Then decided to rebuild the block since I had too much oil consumption, the mechanic managed to do the clearances very tight got some melted rod bearings in just 8000 miles

Then I got myself a b16a2 block from a year 2000 EK4 civic since people were throwing them away for B20's and had it resurfaced, milled the head some more and put all things together

I tested on that setup COMP CAMS stage 2 (57200 if I recall the code correctly) having 12,4 lift on the intake side and overall similar characteristics to the Skunk2 stage 2 cams

My compression was 220+ psi on all 4 cylinders, the car was much WEAKER at high rpms on the dyno than when using the BC3+ cams.
Whatever I did, with the stock intake manifold, the air fuel ratio got very rich suddenly at about 8000 rpms. The car needed too low values for injection time (MUCH lower than stock maps).
Playing with the cams didnt help much. Looked like the stock motor with just increased compression couldnt handle those cams..

Then I got myself the BC3+ cams on it again, got the missing power back , then installed an ITR intake manifold and currently have peak power at 8800 where I have the rev cut because of the stock internals where with the stock intake manifold could not get peak higher than 8200-8300 rpms.
If you think the exact details of my current b16 setup with numbers etc are so interesting I can maybe do a separate topic

I am not sure of how the comp stage 2 would work with the ITR intake manifold on my setup. But I know for sure stage 2 cams do not work good in a stock b16a motor even with a good increase in compression

so it's about 6 years experience on several setups/tunes/dynos. I also like to read other people experiences and never saw a dyno sheet proving of what you recommend (stock b16a motor with s2s2 cams and I-H-E that is)

It's hard to give more proof of experience through the Internet but I think it's enough

 

Yes, you did a better job than most for sure. A lot, but not all of your advice came from first hand experience and if people could read between the lines, they'd see there's value to what you said.

BC 3's are a well known cam choice for the B16a crowd and the B18c crowd that want a good powerband for the street. Those crower stage 2 cams may have had similar advertised spects to the S2S2's but they are a different cam and do not perform the same. In that sense it's really not accurate to say that a cam with "similar advertised specs" will perform the same as another. Cam centrelines, ramp angles etc will have a huge effect on what that means to an engine.

If the B16a is mostly stock with your basic I/H/E mods, the S2S1, BC3 cams would be the better choice everytime. If a B16a has the modifications that the OP listed and he wanted some cams that would also work well if he jumped up to a 1.8L or larger, the S2S2's would be an obvious choice.

I have dyno'd b16a's with similar supporting mods, using those cams that would hit 160-170 whp on stock compression. Sure 11:1 would be even better, but the stock comp level is adequate to make power with those cams. Did they hurt power down low? no...why? because they still use stockish primary lobes, like the S2S1's. Low end power doesn't really suffer, all that had to be changed was VTEC crossover was around 6000rpm and it carried power up higher in the RPM range to about 8400 if memory serves.

The stock intake manifold on a b16a will usually own a type R intake until 7-7500 rpm, especially on a b16a. This would still work well on a 1.6L but if he went up to a 1.8L, that's when I would worry about upgrading to the type R intake manifold. Lots of people would be willing to trade a few hp at the peak for better midrange and low end especially on a 1.6L

Crome fuel maps often had errors in their duty cycle listings, IMHO it made that tuning system harder to get things right on, to make power. The OP is using hondata which is far superior.

The bottom line is that those cams will work and not as poorly as you might think.

 

I like the fact that we are having a dialog here and not just one liner quarrels

It's true the s2s2 are not exactly the same to comp cams stg2 (no cam is identical to the other for copyright issues anyway), but engine wise the camshafts rated at the same lift and close duration usually perform similar at the same engine.

Also what I meant to say when I reffered to low rpm was not before vtec engages but low in general (this was my mistake since I should say low-mid).
Usually when the cam is too much, you take the vtec point higher and higher in order to avoid a drop in the switchover. In B16a's with BC3+ for example a good vtec point is at 5800 rpms.
For wilder only at vtec cams, when the pre-vtec lobes are stock(ish), if you need to have vtec switchover to lets say 6500 in order to avoid the drop, you have a "stock cam" for about 1000 rpms more than the previous case.
So you loose power.
Usually the lower the compression is, the higher the optimal vtecpoint goes (from my dyno experience)

Then, the ITR intake manifold gets owned up to 7500 rpms often by the stock one as you say, but in a b16 engine if you peak at 8000-8200 (which is the top for the stock manifold) it means not enough power for 1.6lt.
That is because since the engine has small displacement the only way to get numbers is to retain torque at as high rpms as possible.

I still believe the stage 2 cam will perform good only from 7000 to 8200 in a stock block and manifold b16a and poor at any other range because the stock manifold will restrict higher rpm and the low compression will make you put the vtec switchover at 6500 rpm

For Crome, I disagree that s300 is better for such applications (nothing fancy needs to be done, just afr set and ignition tune)

It would be nice to have someone test what we both say but it is an expensive sport unfortunately.

 

Actually The Blox A = S2S1, Blox B = S2S2, Blox HSL = S2S3, Blox C = Jun 3, Blox P1 tuner = S2 pro 1, etc, identical copies.

Engine wise, camshafts rated at the same lift and close duration don't necessarily mean similar performance at the engine for the reasons I listed above in my last post. Ask any experienced engine builder, they will tell you.

Have you ever looked at a stock b16a2 dyno graph? When my car was stock, I dyno'd it and it had a noticable drop at the VTEC crossover on stock cams, stock computer. B16a2 cams are not big by any measure and yet raising the VTEC crossover a couple hundred RPM eliminated this dip and gave an increase in power. Installing S2S2 cams required an increase in VTEC crossover BUT it still resulted in a gain over stock power levels. So when you say "so you lose power", compared to what?

I now run a 1.8L in my car using cams that are much larger than stock but use "stockish" primaries. My VTEC crossover is set at 6100 which is higher than stock cam settings on that motor but I can tell you for certain that I make more power than stock even reving an extra 600 RPM past where I normally would change over.


A stock b16 manifold would/does make more power, over the entire curve, using S2S2 cams, when compared to the same motor using stock cams, so I would consider that "enough power".

The S2S2 cams perform as good or better than stock cams through most of the RPM range up until 7000 RPM and then they really come to life and will make more power than stock cams even with a "restrictive intake" up to the rev limit. The stock compression level will not require you to set the crossover point to 6500, it will usually be around 5900.

The S300 is better period. It does not have injector duty cycle errors, timing map errors or any number of glitches in it's program that make a car hard to tune because the maps don't look right.

You've spoken from your personal experiences and I'm speaking from my personal experiences of testing the cams I speak of on the b16a. I think that makes most of what is being said as pretty accurate.

 

well I didnt mean of course the "copies".
You can find many china oriented copies named "Bad ***** Performance" and so on if you search for copies..
I was referring to real cam making companies


I actually have also dynoed my car when stock and didnt have any drop. Maybe you had a problem you didnt know of?
When I say you lose power, I mean compared to a setup you dont have to move your vtec too high and stay on the primaries for too long

The 1.8L is a whole different story. For the same cams if you set your vtec higher than in a stock b16a, you are doing something wrong or have turbo setup compression ratio on your 1.8L, no offense.

If I see it (or I see before and after graphs), I'll believe it. But I cant right now.
It does not make sense. Unless the stock b16a in comparison had a problem of some sort and was performing lower than the b16a's do, so after the cam install the power increase brought you close to a stock performance in those areas and you considered that as an improvement.
The bigger a cam is the more time the valves remain open which means the lower the dynamic compression is on a motor. In a 1.6L since there is not much displacement the dynamic compression drops much easier than in a higher displacement motor. That is why having 10,2 in a 1.6lt engines is nothing similar to a B20 with 10,2:1 concerning cam handling.
So when you raised your displacement, if you didnt lower your compression you should have been able to lower your vtec point.

I still disagree. Because even if the values are "wrong" as you say, you tune based on readings from a wideband and a dyno. So you dont care of the looks of the maps. On top of that there are versions that do not suffer of any errors of the kind you suggest and only some specific versions had some ignition timing values issues.
S300 is of value in much more complex applications (nitrous spraying - turbocharging, weird intake conversions where you need to mess with more sensors to have smooth run) but in those levels we are talking about it's a total overkill.


One thing I'm not sure that you understand is that I'm not against running s2s2 in a b16a especially since there is a future plan for 1.8L (I am also having thoughts of testing them on my current setup but am reluctant because of my compression ratio - I may get no big gains)

Our disagreement is that I strongly suggest he needs a big increase in compression ratio and a different than stock intake manifold to use the cams in a b16a and you say they are not needed.

 

To give you some background info, I use to own a performance shop a few years ago and tested a number of different cams, intakes on various setups. I wish I still had all the graphs from back then but most of it was lost when my old computers hard drive died.

Here's a thread that will give you some good insight as to the difference between the two manifolds:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/b16a-manifold-itr-%5Bdyno%5D-2471772/

The P30 does a better job than most realise. The other thing to keep in mind is that this was tested on a 1.8L so the intake manifold would have "run out of air" sooner than on a 1.6L. This shows how the S2S2 cams would be a decent match on a b16a (manifold, RPM range wise).

You'll also notice that this 1.8L motor that was using a stock ecu also had a similar dip when transitioning into VTEC like mine did. I found it to be very common when dynoing stock B motors and nothing was wrong with them. This is where engine tuning systems were able to pull more power out of stock setups by simply removing the dip.

 

Many thanks for your experienced replies,

By the time i have moded my car engine, i like to make changes only one time, here there aren't anything for that cars, manufacters, tuners, etc. I unfortunately haven't got much money to buy, probe and then have conclusions. So i think patiently any mod, now my question is, thinking in change my cam's i would like to change and don't make changes later so i was thinking in buy all s2pro2 camshaft (springs,valves,cams,gears,rets...) and update my flywheel to ACT 12.5lb and start learning tune that setup with LC-1 wideband.

What your opinion about that?
What would be the appropriate mods for my high part that will not had to touch it in future?

Many thanks for all another time,Ciaoo.

 

do not buy the pro series cams for your car, go with the skunk tuner series stage 2's. everything else looks fine.

 

OP, S2S2s will make very good power on a 1.6L, especially when used in conjuction with a ITR/Skunk2/AEBS/Blox manifold even with stock compression. The real key is to make sure you are running a very good exhaust/header combo. I ran 3" exhaust on my 1.6L and it trapped 95 to 95 mph consistently.

Also, since this is your 1st time trying to tune, maybe you should try a Blox A or S2S1 cam. They are really easy to tune. If you go S2S2 then get a ITR manifold.

 

Many thanks, looking for my configuration.

Ok then, so if i could buy skunk2 tuner st2 cams, camgear and springs, and lc-1. My question is, would be advisable with that mods a larger IM and TB?, or something like injectors, fuel pump or fuel rail.

Would be easy to find any similar configuration, somebody who had that configuration with camgears ajusted to some (Xº,Xº). Someone who had a similar custom maps to have a good base maps that i would tune fuel maps then properly?

Many thanks. Ciaoo.

 

hi all
sorry to barge in but seems this thread is excellent for me at the moment.

the level of expertise is far superior to what we are used to.

i am writing from my friends account due to forgotten password on my account.
let me tell you about myself and my problem.

My name is Dwight , AKA Kaleta
i am from Gibraltar.
a British colony at the southern border of Spain.
This is our first project.

my friend and i have recently built a b16a2 with:

*b16b pistons
*kms engine development valves , springs , retainers , bronze guides ,cylinder brace , oil pump
*eagle 29lb lightened crankshaft
*ACL race bearings for conrod and crankshaft
*Lightend pulley set
*adjustable cam gears onukawa
*greddy timing belt
*obx stage 2 camshafts
*Neptune Ecu
*Aem Air/Fuel
*EGT Gauge
*Skunk 2 Pro Intake
*STR 68mm TB
*AEM Short Ram
*AEM Fuel pressure Regulator
*Nology Spark Wires
*NGK Spark plugs
*Exedy Stage 1 Clutch + Lightened Flywheel
*Megan Racing Exhaust header
*custom 2.5 inch all the way exhaust.

im not sure if we are using a 2 or 3 layer head gasket.
our compression should be around 11:1

i now know from what ive been reading that OBX cams are not our best choice but got them cheap.
also know we are missing MSD Upgraded Distributor plus coil plus amp.

we are currently tuning and have some dificulties on ignition timing and vtec crossover.

if any one can help please let me know.
will check this site often but would appreciate if i could be contacted via email.

kaletavti@hotmail.com

thanx

 

hi just found my password!
i am the writer of the previous post.

 

Which would be a good 2 Layer Headgasket?

 

Just for some Insight... Pro 2 cams need a minimum compression of 12:1 vs the Pro 1s at 11:1.

This is very good info in this thread and appreciate the experience tuners come in here and speak on their own experiences on cams... If your looking for more mid to top end power, I would highly recommend S2 Pro1 cams.

Our Pro1 cams are widely used by NA and FI cars. If you need more info feel free to ask to search to forums, Our visit www.Skunk2.Com

 

we're talking about a first timer here...
don't talk him into pro1's, they could make more power but he's got to learn to tune, build etc, first!

a set of s2s2 will do just fine for a stockish b16a2 with supporting mods
will make it nice and peaky , and do good in the future on a 1.8

not safe to rev over 8700-8800 on a stock b16 with cams and springs?
i rev my B18C with stock cams/springs to 8700rpm all day long (daily driver making 200-300miles every week) done it for 20000+ miles
friend of mine runs his stock b18c with s2 cams/springs to 9200rpm every timeout
b16 loves to rev even more

 

bump...

also we used a 2 layer head gasket and seems it hasnt been able to handle the compression.
sweating oil...

should we install a single layer head gasket?

help very much appreciated

thanx