I thought about starting a poll, but I don't think that will show the results I'm looking for, so here it goes:

Contendors:

Shawn Church (Church Automotive Testing Wilmington, CA)
Sakata Motorsports
Bubba (Do It Dyno)

Setup:

89 Civic Si (Hatchback)
B16A
Drag Gen III Turbo kit (T3/T4 .50 AR Master Power turbo)
Precision 680cc injectors (low impedance)
Stock internals
3" turbo-back exhaust (test pipe)
P28 with Neptune RTP
Innovative Motorsports LC-1 Wideband
B&M FPR
Tial 35mm Wastegate
Blox racing manual boost controller
Blitz SS BOV

Currently running a Church tune which yeilded 237 WHP without boost controller (.5 BAR spring) or 3" turbo-back (I had a crappy, mix and match system that went from 2.5" at the turbo to 1.75" after the cat (which I later found that it had been hollowed out).

I know it might be expensive at first, but I'm wondering who could make more power. I have a few extra bucks laying around, so I might just do this. I will make it a sort of "tune-off."

I'll take a day off school, and schedule consecutive appointments with all 3 of them. Whoever makes the most power gets the rest of my business. I will try to schedule them as close as possible so that weather changes will not affect each tuner's results.

Does anyone have any input/suggestions on how to make this competition more fair? They won't know that I'm doing it, but I think it would be good info. to post up in this forum.

I'm thinking have a maximum boost limit for them. Or what if I give them a HP goal, and see who can make that power on the lowest boost setting? Hmmmmm.......

This is not bench racing/tuning or anything like that. This is a deliberate research project aimed at finding the best tuner in southern california.

I want feedback from others such as:

Would you find this information useful?
Would you be willing to pitch in to help me out? (I'm going to do it with or without your help, but I might just keep my findings to myself if nobody pitches in)
Would you like to see or prefer to see more/different tuners involved?
What restrictions/guidelines would you think would make this competition more fair?

Any other suggestions, questions, comments, or feedback are welcome and encouraged.

 

Nice idea, but worthless and nearly impossible to properly execute in reality.

First off, to have a level playing ground the car would need to be tuned on the same exact dyno at the same location with the same exact conditions and EMS by all tuners to be fair.

Preferably a Dynapack to eliminate variables such as run time, strapping technique, wheelspin, loss of tach signal, etc. ECT, IAT, engine & transmission oil temps, and IC temps would need to be exactly the same at the start of every single pull. Boost levels would need to be 100% consistent on every pull, which is not likely to happen.

What constitutes the "best" tune? Most power at WOT only? Going for absolute maximium power is not how a proper tune for a street driven car should be. Every tuner will have a slightly different style of tuning and make different decisions based on their experiences and personal preference.

What if the motor/turbo gets hurt or has an issue during one of the tuning sessions, especially since everyone would be trying to push it to the ragged edge? I'm sure I haven't even listed everything here that would need to be controlled/considered - the variables are simply too many and have to much effect on the end result for this type of test to work.

-My $0.02

 

First, I want to thank you for your input.

I have a few responses and questions for you.

I don't think this is a worthless idea. I'm sure I'm not the only one out there who is interested in the results of this experiment.

You say that it is nearly impossible to execute. While I completely agree with you regarding the possiblity of minute differences resulting from the differences in how the tune is executed, how much of a difference do you think they will actually make?

What I'm going for here is not to find the highest overall HP number. I mean, if they are all within about 15 - 20 HP of eachother, I'm not going to come back and say that one was any better than the other because that would just be plain retarded.

It shouldn't matter what dyno is used because my goal is to find the best tuner, so if one tuner is using a dynometer that has a higher margin of error than another tuner, then I consider that dynometer as part of the "best tuner" package, and that would make him a "bad tuner" if his dynometer isn't accurate or capable of providing consistent results.

The whole purpose of this is to see which tuner can tune the best.

Perhaps I should define the term "best tune." Feel free to add to/take away from my definition as you see fit...

Best tune: noun the engine management settings which allow for the highest efficiency for a given motor including, but not limited to: smoothness of HP and toruque curves, minimization of boost required to attain a particular HP goal, duration of peak HP over a given RPM range, and driveability: all with the lowest possible amount of time spent on the dyno.

Let's say that the 1st tuner does a nearly perfect job. when I go to the second and 3rd tuner, they might have a few small corrections to make, but for the most part, it would be optimized. In that case, i would say that they are all about even. If I go to the second tuner, and he manages to smooth out the HP and torque curves and is able to widen the powerband over a longer RPM range, let's say he adds 50 HP over a 2000 RPM period, then obviously that tuner would be the more skilled.

If the motor/turbo has any issues during the tuning session, then obviously all bets are off, because it would be impossible to gather any type of valuable data whatsoever.

 

BTW, I looked at your website. I'm not sure whether it was those cams or what, but why did you stop on J. Rabon's GSR?! LOL That thing looks like the bottome half of a huge HP mountain! LOL

j/k Good job on the tune though...

 

It's not a worthless idea, I just don't see it being possible.

As someone that tunes cars every single day, I would say that the many variables presented can indeed have a large effect on the final result.

You mentioned 15-20hp as a margin. That is huge! So who would decide what constitutes an insignificant difference? It would be a matter of personal opinion. Too many of the judged/rated items would simply boil down to each individuals opinion/judgement of the presented data. And if the data is not all taken from the same "measuring stick" (dyno), the is no way to accurately compare the data.

I see some of your points, but in the end I do not believe that it's possible to perform such a test in a scientifically precise and accurate manner. It would ultimately end being as it always has - a matter of personal opinion.

 

I still don't disagree with you, and that is why I'm doing this thread to see what others might have to say about possible ways to make it somewhat possible.

The reason I'm pressing the issue is because there must be a tuner out there who can provide the "best tune." If it was scientifically possible for astronimers to plot the position and path of stars hundreds of years before computers existed, surely modern science can prove that one tuner is better than another.

I'm doing this post to find out what others think is a reasonable margin, and what the standards should be. Of course there are going to be differences in temperature and dyno readings, but this is the best I can do given the tools currently available.

I think that if I can get them all done within a 5 hour period (let's say between 10am - 3pm) that should keep the temperature relatively close enough to make a rough comparison.

What I'm looking for really is to see if one of the tuners can make significant improvements over the previous tuner's settings. This margin is what I was talking aobut with the 15 - 20 HP, but if you think that is too big given the conditions/technology/options available to gather our data, then what would you say would be a better margin?

I mean, what if we were comparing somebody like Church to a "street tuner." I'm sure Church could easily "out-tune" the street tuner. This is the same comparison I'm looking to make with the top tuners except on a much tighter scale...

 

I'm sure you've had customers come in, you look at their tune, and you just go

Then you go in, and make corrections, and next thing you know, their HP curve starts looking like J. Rabon's

That's what I'm going for, except not with such drastic improvements neccessary. As long as one tuner can increase/improve the performance of the previous tune.

 

As some people have mentioned this is going to be very hard to complete.

For instance lets just take Church's dyno if you dyno a car on his dyno the top horsepower number will be around 30hp higher than our Mustang dyno we have here at the shop without even touching the calibration.

What I would suggest is to take the car in on some basemap of some sort and have that basemap dynoed on some pre-determined dyno. Take the car to each tuner with this map and have them work their magic on it. Don't take one tuners tune to another shop. Keep uploading the same basemap for them to make their corrections to. Than dyno their tune on the same dyno you did the baseline on.

Now for a absolute best tune there are a multiple number of things you should look at. Partial throttle, idle, startup in both cold and hot weather, AFR throughout the entire powerband not only at WOT, but also partial as well, MPG, knock, there are a number of things you should look at and not just power over the curve on a full throttle run.

 

JERRY BUILT all the way!

 

Thank you, this is what I'm talking about. This is the scentific method at work. I'm an engineering student myself, and I can't believe I didn't think of this. We have to make these kinds of measurements all the time like in my chemistry classes, we always have to use the same balance when taking mass measurements. We can do as many things as we want with our reageants and solutions, but when all the reactions are complete, we have to go back to the same balance we took the initial reading from.

Excellent idea! Thank you. Are you really from AEM? No wonder why you thought of this.

Good point, that is what I liked about Church. They did do partial throttle tuning. My startup however is difficult at times. I was wondering if it was because the Neptune RTP disables the fuel priming just before startup. They said that it is a "security feature."

My understanding was that with increased HP comes incresed efficiency; hence, increased fuel economy. My fuel economy did not go up much after the tune. I'm using Innovative motorsports LC-1 which tells me that even when I'm cruising, I'm around 12:1 AFR, and around 10:1 at WOT.

I have no knock sensor, so I can't account for that.

All good points, and I appreciate your input on this.

 

Who?

 

prostreetimport.com

 

Yes I do work for AEM haha. Just cruise the forums and try to chime in when I can.

Although you motor is tuned for maximum power at full throttle it should be at some pre-determined point being 12:1 or 13:1 or whatever. However at partial throttle and cruising it should be leaner and that is where you are going to see your MPG increase. On stock vehicles here we can see anywhere from 14:1 to 17:1 at light loads and cruising. A good tuner will know the limits of the motor and what AFR you should be running at. However a good tuner will also ask you what you want it to be so the liability is on you and not them haha.

 

75% of my tuning time is spent on part throttle and idle. 25% of the time is spent at wide open throttle. Grading a tune by how much power it makes is one way to do it. but what about driveability, gas mileage, cold starts, etc. the only thing alot of dyno time does is squeeze out that last few (usually dangerous) horsepower and abuse the engine for no reason.

just my 2 cents on this topic.

 

I see you are located in Torrance. What is your shop called?

I totally agree with both Tomdata and Rtype16. Driveability and MPG are important. I think running as rich as I have been on this tune may be causing excessive build up in my combustion chamber.

Case in point: I pulled my head off one month before getting tuned to get the head and block resurfaced and prepped for the tune. While I had everything apart, I went ahead and had everything cleaned and pressure checked. I had never seen the inside of my motor so clean. Anyway, here it is 4 months later, and I have carbon deposits that may have caused my compression reading to go up. Now all my cylinders indicate 225 psi. I'm not exactly sure if it was running too rich during daily driving that caused this or whether it was from the blow by I'm getting.

In either case, I agree and think that that is just too rich to be driving around.

That being said, I think I will follow Rtype's procedure for the baseline, and add fuel economy, cold start up, and driveability to the list of factors of a "good tune."

I'm thinking maybe a scorecard for each tune will look something like this:

Fuel efficiency (1 - 5)
Driveability (1 - 5)
Cold start crank time (1 - 5)
Peak HP (1 - 5)
Duration of peak HP (1 - 5)
Quality of HP curve (1 - 5) <----- This will be evaluated using integration to find the area below the curve of the HP graph. For those of you who have taken calculus will know that this will give the greatest overall HP output over the entire RPM range.


Each score will be ranked not by opinion, but based solely in relation to one another. In other words, if tuner X's tune yields a hwy MPG of 35 and tuner Y's yields 33 and tuner Z's yields 25, then x will get a score of 5, while z will receive a score of 1, and so on.

 

I agree. The fact that I've (and i'm sure many other tuners) come across the same exact setups and both setups liked different timing, & af ratios says that its upto the tuner to know how to make the motor run right and what the motor likes. Sometimes a dyno tune doesn't give the proper "feel" as it would be on the street.

 

Forgive my hastiness, but are you implying that a street tune might be better in some ways?

 

A dyno or any torque plotting program will give you before and after results. However, on the dyno, the af will read totally different then on the road. I know this because i've done both ways of tuning.

 

From my experience a perfect dyno tune will be "not perfect" on the street. I always prefer a good street tune to a good dyno tune. unless you have a really nice steady load dyno (and understand how to use it) it is very difficult to get part throttle tuning good-perfect.

Now of course these rules only apply to cars making less than about 300whp. When you get above that 300whp range its too scary and unsafe to try to tune the car on the street.

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

These going to be an exspensive test plus Dynoing is very rough your motor and drivetrain.

 

I've tuned 300+hp setups away from residential(i.e. onramps to freeways and then a quick exit, pull over, make changes, give engine a rest, do again ,and repeat to perfection is my moto) to keep it safe but yes it does get scary.

 

im not here to rag on any of the 3 you have listed.. i heard shaun at church was good, but i personally have never been there...

we took my friends car with a sohc vtec to bubba at do it with a greddy turbo, and it made okay power, but we had to turn the boost up to 14psi to make 188whp... and what kinda frustrated me was he just burned a chip, put it in made 3 1/2 runs and said okay your done... while my friend was happy with it, i honestly thougth there was alot more to tuning then that.. just burning the chip and putting it in.. no rtp, no datalogging i mean idk...

then we left, started getting on the freeway and i heard the motor pinging like a mother****er, so i called back and was like wtf? and he said just to turn down the boost.. so i mean, like yea whats the point of paying 275 for a tune to make 188whp at 14psi, then be told to turn down the boost because the tune is incorrect or whatever...

i have been tuning honda's and acuras for 4 years now, just street tuning i dont have a dyno.. but i mean, the car ran fine until we went there my friend just thought it would be better to get dyno'd.. oh ya 2 months later 3 pistons with shattered ringlands

so thats my report...

like i said, bubba is cool as ****, i just didnt like how he did our car

 

:bs:

 

it shouldn't ping especially after you spent that money. He probably set the timing too high for high boost but still it sounds like you're not making enough power with that kind of boost. Maybe I don't know the whole story and possibly you have some bent valves because you should be putting out about 220 or so on a dynojet like bubba's. I can tell you it sure does take more than 3 pulls to get it right and maybe he charged you that just o get your af and ignition in check, but that's not even the case.

But do what he says and see if you ping. For the price you paid, i would have done part throttle and full throttle tuning for you.