I've been reading an endless stream of past posts about understeer, type r sway bar, best mod for the buck, and all that stuff... I dont get it... why would i want to cause MORE understeer, if anything, I want less, I want my car to be perfectly neutral and predictable on the road... can someone please explain this to me, sorry again for the overkill on this topic, but I can't seem to find anywhere this is clearly stated. I can understand for autoXing... but thats about it...

Thanks in advance...!

oh yeah... i'm in the market for a 40mm front sway bar.... haha

-polar
99GSR

 

understeer is evil. It makes a car no fun, but it also makes it safe. For the average driver it is much safer to have a little understeer than to have a car with oversteer. You see, understeer is when the car plows...and to stop the understeer, you can generally slow down and it will get back in line. Oversteer is when the car steers too much...an example would be the tail sliding out and pushing the car in a way that may provoke a spin. Front wheel drive cars are prone to understeer. You can get rid of some or all, and possibly even invoke lift-off oversteer if you beef up the rear sway bar or stiffen up the rear suspension. This allows you to take sharper turns with less or none of that plow that used to occur. It is fun if you enjoy spirited driving but can be dangerous if you screw up.

I hope I explained that a little bit.

 

Thanks for the response, I am still confused though... A couple of months ago I was going through a turn during the rain, and my tail started bailing out on me, before I could even counter steer, I had hit the curb and my front two wheels had jumped onto it because a wheel grabbed a hold of it... How can I make my car NOT do that ... I understand I should have gassed it/steer into the slide, but I would rather my car not rotate that way unless of course i can control it better....

i'm still confused... shouldn't my car not be sooo tail happy ?

 

maybe you need better tires?

 

You did that in an integra with stock suspension because it was RAINING!!!! Crappy tires mixed with wet conditions and turning fast are dangerous no matter what kind of suspension setup and tires you are running.

 

Now tell the truth...Were you going a "little" too fast into the turn and then did you hit the brakes and/or lift off the throttle while in this turn?

 

I don't know what you have done to your car but generally, the tail is very hard to step out on an integra without suspension changes. I can imagine it if you are running the stock michelins though. They are TERRIBLE tires. There are many people that have had bad luck with those stock michelins in the wet. In fact, when I still had them on my car, it felt more like a sled than a car. To make a long story short, you don't want your car to lose grip on it's tail unless you intended to do so. Lifting off the throttle mid corner causes the wieght to shift to the front of the car and in the wet with shitty tires you might be doing some sliding. I say, get better tires and you'll probably be fine.

 

Just because the suspension is biased towards steady-state understeer doesn't mean the car can't oversteer. If you lift off the throttle and/or hit the brakes during hard cornering your car will oversteer very easily. I had no trouble getting the tail out on my stock Integra at my first autocross.

 

That's so true. You shouldn't try anything that might exceed the car's traction limits and balance in unsafe conditions.

The key here is that it was in traction limiting conditions. Anything can happen when you start driving on wet roads. And, it gets even worse when gravel gets onto the road and the road's tire tread paths.

I've had the tail snap out on me going 20 mph around a cambered turn (which are safer than off-camber turns -[trying to fill in the blanks]). When it snapped, I had no idea it was going to happen, and if I'd been carrying more speed and momentum, I probably would have ended up backwards in a ditch. Be safe in traction limiting conditions.

 

In stock for all Integras (except the Type-R) have a handling balance of understeer. Here is a diagram which illustrates understeer.



Now the opposite of understeer is oversteer. Here is a diagram which illustrates oversteer.



Now, a happy medium between understeer and oversteer is neutral (ie. no understeer and no oversteer). Neutral handling is ideal because both the front and rear tires have the same amount of traction.

Now by adding a Type-R rear swaybar, it will reduce/eliminate understeer, which in turn will give a handling balance of neutral . This is the reason why the Type-R rear swaybar is the "best bang for the buck".

 

no doubt.

I am trying to think of a way that I would be able to oversteer, without major upgrades to the suspension.

bad tires (as in bald) is the only thing that comes to mind.

 

1. understeer is safer than oversteer
2. too thick rear sway bar & too stiff rear springs & you have a recepy for a snap-on oversteer (going backwards on the hwy)
3. to learn how to drive & control oversteer come to your local AutoX track or read on http://www.autox4u.com/nnjr.htm (PA & NJ). They autoX even if it rains!
4. in case your car does oversteer, say to the right, steer to the left & STEP ON the gas. I know, it sounds insane but it's the only way to pull the car back in line.
Hope this helps!
Yuri K

 

Thanks for all the responses! ... Everyone seems to have nailed it, I wasn't actually going to fast, but I did let up on the accelerator + I just put new tires in front, and had the original older crappy ones on back...with the rain, it probably exaggerated the oversteer on it.... From what everyone seems to be saying I should replace all my tires (205/50/15 Kumhos) and Get the Type-R sway bar... Only crappy thing now is I messed up... I bought 2 Kumhos that were
195/50/15... ... Is it worth it for me to go 205's all around ?

Thanks again for all the help!




[Modified by polarmashli, 9:27 PM 8/9/2002]

 

Vazquez - Who had his GSR doing THIS last Sunday at the Chatty autox.

TEINs & an ITR rsb can do wonders...

Still too much roll thou, if I had it to do over I'd order the 26mm Mugen bar.

 

Finally it makes sense! I am such a visual learner that descriptions were just confusing me. That diagram is right click --> save as material.

I lost the *** end of the GS-R on a sharp auto-x corner a couple months ago, but I slid to of the corner, not the inside.

I think I should probably get an ITR sway bar.

 

Before even doing that... try LOWER tire pressures in the rear. Freemod!!!

That'll make your backend even more loose... Before the TEINs, and even with all my previous Hondas I autox'd... that's how I'd get the backend to break.

 

if you want oversteer, put on the 26mm mugen rear bar and take off your front gsr bar. You'll snap around like a charm.

 

::smack:: Ouch.... hehe...

Disclaimer... DON'T DO THIS, unless you've got quite a bit of track time... LOL.

 

"Before even doing that... try LOWER tire pressures in the rear."

Actually I believe you would want to RAISE tire pressure in the rear tires. The lower tire pressue means that more tread comes in contact with the asphalt( widening the tires). By raising tire pressures you are in effect making the tire skinnier which will make the rear end lose traction, causing oversteer.


[Modified by HONDAF1, 3:17 PM 8/11/2002]


[Modified by HONDAF1, 3:18 PM 8/11/2002]

 

http://bmwcrazy.bmwsport.net/tuning/...ndersteer.html

Less rear tire pressure + high front tire pressure = oversteer

Yes lower tire pressures give you more contact patch when you are going straight, but if you're turning the lower tire pressures cause your tire to deform more which will eventually cause it so loose traction because of smaller contact area.

 

Nope...

Exactly...


[Modified by Vazquez911, 6:45 PM 8/11/2002]