Are the wilwoods any good for a 98 civic. Autocross mainly.

 

For autocross, your stock rotors, a good set of high performance street pads, and a well-maintained brake system would be the best bet. This will provide all the brakes you need for auto-x and the street. For suggestions on pads talk to:
http://www.cobaltfriction.com
http://www.porterfield-brakes.com
http://www.carbotecheng.com/main.htm


Also, changes in rotor size will move you into the tougher classes like Street Mod or Prepared.

 

If you've never had decent pads on your car, you will be amazed at the difference it makes. It's night and day. Basically... "what geezer said"...

 

Good pads and good fluid are the best bang for the buck....

IMHO - after market calipers are a big waste of money for most people.

 

what everyone else is saying.

 

for autoX, good pads and fluid, and steel lines if allowed in your class.

for track, I tend to disagree with most people here. A big brake setup will run much cooler and not overheat, brake more consistently, allow the driver better modulation and better ability to consistently take the brakes to the tires limit.

Evan
-but maybe thats just because I drive a 3000 lb car

 

You only need big brakes for the track to take the heat from repeated 120mph stops. For street/autocross, they are a complete waste of money.

 

i disagree....i love my big brakes on the street and i hate getting into a stock car without the added braking power and no cage....i feel so violated in a stock car!

 

well, im in the middle here. certainly not a complete waste of money to spend on bigger/better brakes, especially for track. but at least TRY to do what you can to get the optimum (or standard indended) performance out of your stock calipers with decent pads and proper maintenence. once then you personally feel stock is inadequate or you can discern the benefit from going bigger/better, then by all means, do so. but thats a personal thing, based on personal experience and skill and application, not a blanket rule that upgrading is a must and stock is inadequate.

its like not doing a tune up on your engine and complaining about lack of power or horrible engine performance.

 

All you need for Autocross are some Hawk HP pads with stock rotors. It makes all the difference in the world for under $100.

 

I would say:

a). quality pads-as listed above-

b). fresh fluid or afyetrmarket, some people swear by Ford HD dot 3 fluid other by motul 600, other by ATE super blue, take your pick; the ford fluid is the most affordable, not very sexy or glamarous, but gets the job done.

c). ss brake lines: goodridge, earls, opm? just make sure they are DOT approved, otherwise your SOL if you crash on the street; no DOT = no insurance coverage.

d). and I'm a bit suprised other haven't mentioned these: front brake ducts, for track events/auto-x, it's an easy an possibly DIY job, and work wonders to cool down the brakes, as any added airflow will.

a free but "on the fence" brake mod is the removal of the dust shields, this is a free modification, but does expose the rear of the rotor to debris which could get trapped b/w the rotor/caliper/pad and score the rotor.

after you've tapped these ideas, then it may be time to move onto bigger calipers, rotors, etc., at this point I would start w/ upgraded calipers, my personal choice: spoon 4 pots.

good luck,
hubert

 

Before I hijack this thread (sorry ), I changed to Axxis Ultimates, Brembo OEs, and Goodridge lines and the difference is profound. The biggest difference, besides braking force, is the braking feel. The pedal exerts more pressure on my foot, and the braking force is constant when the pedal pressure is constant (doesn't fall off). I'm very happy.

I was doing some thinking about brakes and such and have come to some conclusions about the physics of braking.

If you are looking for more braking force, then pads are really the only thing you can do to increase it. Since the force of friction on the rotor is composed of the applied force of the brake caliper piston and the coefficient of friction of the brake pad. When you think about it, the force of the cliper piston does not change even if you install Spoon 6 piston units (with bigger pads) or something. These only increase the pad area. Changing the master cylinder size would definitely change the applied caliper force but I think that's it. Also, changing the master cylinder size is a lot more expensive then aggressive pads, and the difference is less pronounced (why?). At first I was thinking that larger master cylinder pistons would displace more fluid and increase pressure. However, the force would be lessened because of the hydraulic force principle (conservation of energy...). So using a MC piston smaller by a numerical ratio, yet compressing it a longer distance would increases the force on the cylinder piston by that ratio and keep the fluid displacement the same. Pretty cool...

I then started thinking about why people insist on increasing the size of their rotors, caliper pistons, and pads. The increase in rotors, I can see. By moving the point of force farther away from the fulcrum of movement (I'm struggling to find better words), more mechanical leverage is applied, increasing the torque in the opposite direction of the rotor's motion. Also, bigger pads require bigger rotors, so it may be as simple as that.

I suppose that bigger caliper pistons are used to accomodate bigger pads, but why are bigger pads important? I refuse to believe that the mechanical advantage is the sole reason. A lot of people claim that it reduces fade by reducing heat absorption, but I'm having trouble seeing that. If the applied force is extended over a greater surface area then less heat is transferred at every single point, but the same overall amount of heat is produced/absorbed. Maybe someone can help me on this one.

Anyone care to add some thoughts?

Chris- pseudo physicist/mech. engineer in the making who forgets everything from school over the summer.


[Modified by GSpeedR, 7:51 PM 8/8/2002]

 

Grippy tires go a long way in braking performance. If you're not using any, I suggest you make this your first improvement.

 

Don't bigger pads increase the amount of heat that can be absorbed, thus making the brakes more resistant to fade? It's like applying a certain amount of energy to heating 150 mL of water, and applying that same amount of energy to heating 200 mL of water. The 200 mL of water will be cooler because there is more water to absorb the heat, just like the bigger pads will be cooler because they have more mass to absorb the heat.

 

ok, if I would've read the whole thread I would've seen that someone already put into words what I wanted to say. If you still wanna hear it, keep reading!

you raise some interesting points. on your question about larger pads=better heat dissapation (sp?) I think the material of the pad is what has the most to do with heat absoption. With a larger rotor, you have more surface area that the pad (whatever size it may be) can work on. Imagine rubbing your finger across a piece of metal one inch long...eventually that metal will heat up (this is a really bad comparison, but keep reading), now, rub your finger over a metal strip 6 inches long and it is going to take 6 times as long (theoretically speaking) to heat that strip to the same temperature as the 1 inch strip. Brakes are pretty straight forward when you break it down to the basics: simple physics.


[Modified by carl_aka_carlos, 12:58 AM 8/9/2002]

 

I was hoping that there were more complicated events occuring, but I guess that it really is that simple (dammit). I kept getting hung up in the fact that the portion of the pad nearest to the center of the rotor (fulcrum of motion...again) is applying the same force as when a smaller pad is used. I'm not looking at the pad as a whole but as an infantessimal amount of rings integrated form the innermost part of the pad to the outer. Each section (ring) experienced a different amount of heat transfer, but I failed to think about heat transfer continuing outward (from one part of the pad to the other). I suppose I just confused myself to the point of no return...

 

Bigger rotors also dissipate heat better.

--buji

 

Gentlemen (and I use that term very loosly):

Please read the following link: http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.htm

Please understand what actually stops your car and under what circumstances you really need big brakes.

Summary: If you can lock your tires with the brakes you currently have, the only reason you would stop in a shorter distance with larger brakes is because your wallet is now lighter.

Thank you.

 

You bet. Changing the MC and booster only cost me $50. One trip to the local (and very scary) junkyard. 1 inch master cylinder from a CL and a booster from a GSR totally changed my braking feel. I have ITR front brakes and GSR rears and was on my stock booster and MC until last weekend. The difference is profound . There aren't many performance pads out there for $50.

Zach

 

come on, using a junkyard master cylinder?
and i can name a lot of decent street pads that are $50.

 

?

Well, I guess I meant to say that larger rotors absorb more heat, rather than dissipate.

I agree that most brake upgrades are completely pointless. I never said rotors have an effect on stopping distance though...

 

Wow. I love these technical digressions, but whenever I read the word "autocross" in a question, the first thing I think about is the rules. See http://moutons.org/sccasolo/ for the actual rules.

More or less, you can do the following to brakes:

In Stock, all you can change is the pads (or lines on pre 1992 cars).

In Street Prepared you can change pads, master cylinders, lines, boosters, remove shields, add air ducts (but not mod the body to do so). You still can't change the size or style of rotor or caliper.

In Street Touring you can change pads, brake lines, add air ducts (but not mod the body to do so), and use drilled or slotted rotors the same size as stock. Nothing about removing dust shields, so that's a no-no (Oops! Don't look at my brakes, please).

Bigger rotors or aftermarket calipers will move you straight to Prepared against purpose built auto-x cars, or to Street Mod against hybrid hatches, E36 BMWs with late model M3 engine swaps, Turbo Supras, etc.

I guess if you've already modded your car over the line into Street Mod status before reading the rules (a not uncommon occurrance), you might want to go ahead and do bigger brakes as well as everything else you'll need to do to be competitive. Or else de-mod back down to something less pricey.

 

Actually, STX allows for larger brake rotors and aftermarket calipers...

 

Darn. I always forget STX. Okay, Wilwoods all around, [whiney voice]but you really don't NEED them for auto-x[/whiney voice].

Jerry - Who withdraws muttering under his breath.

 

i think we've all been pretty consistent that upgrading the brakes past decent pads would be to control thermal stability better. no need for the attitude, try reading the posts, gentleman.