Buying springs, deciding on a good spring rate. But Im concerned about balance - front vs rear. I know track setups run higher rates in the back for oversteer but what about on the street? Is there usually a ratio?

 

The deciding factor seems to be what your back can take, and how much you're worried about potholes and such tearing your car apart.

I'm currently on 500 f/r and it's very, very borderline as far as streetable. Then again, I only drive it to the track. When I made two trips to WV to run, there is a section of US1 that makes me want to die...

The stock ground-control rates seem fairly nice for a street-driven car.

 

i hope your kidding...

i ride on this daily, no problems......hell, i need to order some stiffer springs for the POS.

 

why do you need stiffer springs , I thought your air bags were coming in soon

..........or was that still on the downlow???

Jamie - who thinks Nick could win NOPI this year if everything gets installed in time

 

there is no if jamie......i will win worst of show.

BTW......thanks for the gold plated side mouldings......they will compliment my cammo paint with color shifting side mirrors nicely

 

glad I could help out , couldnt throw the extra away , just needed to find someone to use it

pleased it worked out for you

 

What kind of cars are you guys driving here with the 500F/R springs?
And what shocks? Revalved? Hows the ride quality - extreme?

 

civic, yes aftermarket shocks.....ride quality in my opinion is very bearable.

 

I'm in a hatchback hybrid. Advance Design dampers. 500f/550r. The vast majorty of the time, the car is comfortable and doesn't bother me a bit. The problem is, if I leave my house and leave in any possible direction I'll hit road construction. It's not ideal. Then again, I do have a bad back from a motorcycle wreck in years past so maybe I'm overly sensitive.

Don't listen to Tran over there... he also daily drives with a Buddy Club SpecII exhaust. When I ran my car with one @ Summit Point, I was THE loudest car there, including racecars, and managed to **** just about everyone off. I think his senses are just a little shot...

Anyway, I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything... just realize that what's great for some people isn't even tolerable for others.

 

lmao......your probably right jeff next mod turbo. surely that will quiet it down a bit
and your incorrect......i daily drive a rusted, gutted, no ac having, primered 88 CRX...that makes two gutted non "liveable" cars in my fleet.

 

my ride daily

700lb front and 600lb rears.....with race seat....and cage.....oh wait my car is a race car i daily drive and i have no problems!!!

 

you need to SWAP those springs around

 

I like to stick to the 80% rule.

 

I agree with Mike P. on this one.

I would stick to around 75-80% (ie. 400f/300r), that is what I drive around every day, and auto-x on the weekends. Matched with an ITR rear sway and some Azenis my car handles very very well.

I'd say just go ahead and get the 400f/300r, and then if you decide that you want some more oversteer you can just get some 450lb. or 500lb. springs for the rear. But trust me, on my setup, the 400f/300r setup proves to be very neutral with a hint of oversteer at the limit.

Jon

 

Ok well I got people telling me to go with 400/300 (including Ground Control) then I got a number of members telling me that I want higher rates in the back to counter act for front biased weight balance of a FWD car. Its hard picking a setup without actually driving it first.

 

Not many folks get it right on the first try. Welcome to the world of racing, where nothing can be done properly without a little R&D.

 

>>Ok well I got people telling me to go with 400/300 (including Ground Control) then I got a number of members telling me that I want higher rates in the back to counter act for front biased weight balance of a FWD car.<<

"Rate bias" can begin to sound more like a religious discussion in some circles.

A lot of people like to muck things up by claiming that their FWD works best with 600f/400r rates blah blah blah. "Oh yeah, that's on a VW though"...duh. It's impossible to provide a universal "rule of thumb" for FWD's because there are too many other factors (corner weights, wheel rate, camber curve, track, toe, crazy-*** drivers, etc.).

For the zealots out there, my *opinion* follows....
On a Honda I would absolutely swap those rates to 400r/300f. The other way around will give you an under-steering pig (which is what most people are used to, so of course they're going to feel comfortable with it). 400r/300f is very safe, streetable, and will yield a decent amount of oversteer. I have commuted and competed with this exact combination for 2 years on everything from street tires to Hoosier bias plys. No surprise snap spins, no chattering wildly on rough roads... This setup *still* does not offer the amount of oversteer I'd like though.

I have no idea how other people make high front rate bias work. That is unless they add a huge rear sway bar (and 10 extra lbs...) to compensate. Maybe it's because they overdrive the p*ss out of their front tires...in fact, I've watched 'em do it. A giant rear bar can be a bad idea because, IMO, the primary function of a sway bar is transitional stability and over/understeer is a consequence of the design. Sway bars do provide a compromise if you want soft spring rates but still want to minimize body roll (ITR's for example). However, this is most definitely a compromise when it comes to suspension tuning and we can do better than that. Remember, we're talking about an econobox/sedan platform here. Honda never intended their stock designs to be all that "racy", not even the ITR (ooh, did I say a bad thing?). For comparisons sake, take a ride in an S2000. Unlike the Civic/Integra, an S2000 was never meant to be anything but a sports car. S2000's will never win awards for cross-country comfort. If you want to know what a Civic with 400r/300f rates feels like, that's pretty close, but it's still not that bad imo.

Here's how I'd do it. Use spring rates to provide the right amount of oversteer. Hondas, having the weight bias of a lawn dart, require higher rear spring rates than front in order to achieve real-actual oversteer. Then combine the springs with sway bars that will adequately stabilize the car during transitions. Also, make sure your (adjustable) shocks are valved adequately to handle the spring rates you choose. Do this, put in some tuning time, and you'll have a good handling FWD that yields a decent amount of steady-state oversteer without all the throttle-lift snap spins and untimely pushing that occurs with other setups (driving skill is also a big factor in this btw). And in the end, it's what the fastest guys do so I just copy them. Oh, something else to keep in mind... As drivers improve, they tend to desire more and more oversteer in their setups...

let the flames begin...

 

A front wheel driver will always have understeer in it's balance. No matter the spring rate selection. The only thing you can do is bring it as close to neutral as you can. When one oversteers in a FWD car, it's always provoked. This is why saying that "I put stiffer springs in the rear of the car for added oversteer" isn't completely correct.

I will certainly agree that the general rule that you need to have stiffer springs in the rear to make it handle better isn't necessarily always true, because geometry has a whole hell of a lot to do with it, too. It is generally true for the double wishbone Hondas, though.

 

Great response.

Im starting to lean in the direction of a higher rate in the rear. One follow up question about balance tho.

Say the spring rate in the rear is 300R for this scnerio. 3 different setups on a FWD honda.

1.) 100F/300R
2.) 300F/300R
3.) 500F/300R

See how the front rates get equally stiffer in each setup but the rear remains the same? Does that mean that setup 1.) will have more oversteer than setup 3.) even tho the rear is exactly the same? And if thats true, then whats the point of going stiffer in the front like example 3.) which would only result in a rough ride and poor handeling (if its understeers)

 

Good questions! Instead of using actual rates in your analogy, lets think of them in terms of ratios. So, 1 = 1f/3r, 2 = 1f/1r, and 3 = 5f/3r.

Everything else being equal, 1 would yield more steady state oversteer compared to 2 or 3, 3 yielding the least oversteer (and most understeer).

The reason you want stiffer spring rates is because of roll stiffness. The goal isn't to remove *all* of it, but rather to reach an optimum amount. Some practical factors come into play here. For example, I have to have fairly stiff springs up front or my wheels will hit the fenders under hard cornering. As for determining the "optimum" amount of roll stiffness, that's beyond my grasp of suspension tuninng, but I doubt there's a set amount because too many other things come into play. Course design, pavement, traction, driver preference, etc. There are some other guidelines besides the practical reasons. For one thing, roll stiffness affects turn-in (how quickly the car actually takes a set and begins to turn after the steering input), as well as "feel". Higher roll stiffness helps the car turn-in more crisply. If you feel disconnected from the road, stiffer springs can help.

>>And if thats true, then whats the point of going stiffer in the front like example 3.) which would only result in a rough ride and poor handeling<<

I personally don't understand either. I've spoken with a particular individual about this more than once when I was soliciting advice for setting up my car. He strongly recommended high front rates and lower rears. At the time, the guy autocrossed an A-mod car, but then switched to an STS Civic hatch for awhile. He even owns a performance business. Funny thing is, for all his "knowledge", he got creamed every weekend by me and other honda drivers who chose not to take his advice on spring rates. Guess he finally got tired of it because I didn't see him or the car for a long time. But, that same individual has been spotted recently co-driving another STS car (with high rear spring rates) and he's really kicking some ***. So, either he picked up some serious driving skills while he was "gone" (illogical), or his car wasn't setup correctly (quite possible). Very interesting....