Car has been running fine. 61K miles.
Went out earlier today, jumped in the car, ready to do a supermarket
run with the family - when out of the blue, car doesn't start.

I turned it over 4 or 5 times and it started to slow down,
battery perhaps nearing the end of it's life. But no sign that the
engine was about to catch.

Called the AAA, who came and tried it with a fully charged battery.
Turned over normally, but the guy noted that there wasn't even the slightest
smell of gas, and he mentioned possible fuel pump issue.

Here's the weird thing - 4 or 5 years ago., exactly the same thing
happened. At that time towed it to the dealer, who were able to get it
running in a few minutes. They told me they didn't do anything special,
but I was, quite honestly, suspicious. They didn't charge me for that.

The air has been damp here recently - bad electrical connection somewhere? Is the car known for any issues that may be relevant?
Thanks for any info.

 

do you have a cel and when you turn the key over do you hear a whining noise for a sec or 2

 

Thanks for responding.
I don't understand your question what is a "cel"?
When you say a whining noise, do you mean something besides
the engine cranking - because I think that's all I heard.

Tomorrow in the light of day, I'm going down to take another look.
Other problem is, don't have a great battery - not a lot of crank-time left.

 

CEL = Check Engine Lamp

The "Whining noise" he's asking aboot is the fuel pump. If you were to turn the key to it's first (run) position, you should hear the pump cycle and then stop.

You may have an issue with pourous Ignition (spark plug) Wires and / or Distributor cap. These defects usually show up during rainy weather and can be worst during foggy conditions. Pourous wires absorb moisture during high humidity which can allow the electrical energy ment for the spark plugs to leak to ground; thus no spark. A pourous dist cap can cause the same condition, along with internal arcing. The low battery voltage can aggrivate this condition by not supplying enough electrical energy to drive the starter and the ignition system at the same time.

At your earliest convience, have the battery AND the alternator checked. Unless you're sure that you left something on (draining the battery), there has to be a reason it discharged.

P

 

Hello -
Thanks for the explanation. No check engine light.
Hopefully, the air will be a little warmer and drier tomorrow, but you never
know. (I'm in Los Angeles, but we've had some weird weather lately).

Regarding the ignition switch, if
1 = off
2 = radio
3 = Normal run position
4 = starter motor

I assume you mean position 3? I'll try it tomorrow. I'll leave it there for
a few seconds and see if I can hear anything.

Regarding the battery - it's 4 years old. It was a basic model from
Pep boys, so its probably reaching the end of its life.
If I can't get the car running tomorrow, the car will most likely be in the
dealer Monday - I can certainly get those things checked then.

 

Position 3, yes.

Is there any indication that it's trying to start at all? Like an occasional 'pop' or you can hear a cylinder fire off?

P

 

There's absolutely no indication that the engine is starting to "catch"
at all. As mentioned, the AAA guy commented on the fact that there
is no smell of any gas in the air, despite all the cranking.

I just went down stairs and tried it in the "run" position.
I kept it there for 15 seconds, I couldn't hear anything at all.

 

The Main Relay (twin relays in one housing) may have decided to take a sabatical.
It supplies power to not only the Fuel Pump, but the PCM as well.
This relay has been problamatic since the late 80's

#13 in this illustration from the Honda Parts catalog.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=ACCORD&catcgr y2=2000&catcgry3=4DR+SE&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=CO NTROL+UNIT+%28CABIN%29

P

 

Thank you very much for this info.
I'm looking at the picture. Is this relay visible under the hood somewhere?
Or is it in one of the fuse compartments accessible inside the front doors?

If I can find it, I can disconnect the battery and make sure everything
is seated properly.

 

The Illustration is for the The interior fuse box and those electrical components mounted thruout the dash. In effect, they've illustrated everything as if it were floating in air at it's relative position to each other. Notice the "front" arrow and the small picture imbeded?
The master relay is located on the L/S kick panel just forward of the Fuse Box, along with several other items.

I wouldn't suggest disconnecting the battery at this point unless you've got the radio security code handy.
Unless you're going to cut and splice things, a cursory inspection of the connections will do.
Honda really thinks thru their electrical systems, and their efforts are top notch. They don't have a problem with things coming loose (unless someone's size 10 1/2 got into somewhere it shouldn't

P

 

Ok - I see what you mean. I'll take a look this morning.
It's nice and sunny today @ 8AM, so that's a good sign.

I don't think my radio (it's the basic one) has a security code.
I've had the battery disconnected before without issue - unless it
has to disconnected for X minutes before it kicks in?

 

I located the relay. Took a look at it and around the area.
Nothing seems amiss. Enough juice in the battery for 3 good
cranks, then it slowed down. Car did not start.

Looks like a tow to the dealer tomorrow. I'll update this when I get
the scoop on what's wrong.

 

I just got a call from the dealer. The reason it didn't start is that
"the key lost its memory" and they want to charge me $100 to reprogram the key.
Is that a scam?
I've got two spare keys at home. I told him to hold off on that because I want to see
if my two original keys work. Regarding the cost, I've a feeling the money is
already gone from my wallet. It's been sucked up by the diagnosis fee,
in lieu of having the programming done.

 

You get three keys when you purchase the vehicle (If I remember correctly).
1) Primary key (with Transponder) which performs all functions.
2) Valet Key (With Transponder) which starts the car only
and a third key which can unlock the vehicle only.

I never brought it up because I have yet to see a failed start condition from the key. I've seen it with the GM VAT Vehicle Anti Theft System, but if true this will be the first Honda. Honestly, I've never heard of one 'loosing' it's coding.

Your Valet key might still start it (if it is indeed the problem)

The dealer should ask you to supply ALL your keys since they all have to be matched.

This still leaves the question of the Battery and how it died. Unless it went belly up from continually cranking.... Any word on that?

P

 

Hello- they tested the battery and told me it's shot.
$160 for a new one. Why are their batteries twice as much as
any where else? Looks like I haven't got a choice on that one.
Would never buy from the dealer at thpose prices if I could help it.

They did ask me to bring the keys in. Haven't had a chance to do so
yet. I'm waiting on a phone call from the service writer to discuss some
other "issues"

I had the timing belt changed 3 months ago - special for $289.
It was timing belt only - he told me it didn't include "all the other stuff
they usually do at the same time" (what ever that is - something to do
with the water pump?)

He left a message for me a short whille ago (seems they forgot
I had the belt changed) advising me to change the belt as there
was an oil seal that they were concerned about in the vicinity which he
said may contaminate the belt) - they want $1075 for this job.

But the belts changed - now what ?

 

If its a four cylinder I'm pretty sure there is a recalll on an oil seal for the balance shafts. Which is right by the timing belt, they should have atleast informed you of that when they did the belt the first time.

All the other stuff that you should do with a timing belt includes the water pump, tensioner and on that motor the balance shaft belt and tensioner also, along with the aforementioned seal that was a recall. Now is also a good time to check the front main seal and oil pump and seal while they are easily accessible and easy to fix.
Also try to stay away from the dealer, just find a good mechanic, their are plenty that have worked at honda dealers before who won't kill you on the prices. Also to replace a battery could be done with a few tools and 10 minutes.

 

Someone was asleep at the switch when they advised you on the timing belt job.
At the bare minimum, BOTH Belts, the related Seals, Retainers, Guides and Tensioner(s) should have been included with the quote. The Water Pump is often suggested but left up to the customer.
IF it were my auto, i'd offer to pay for the additional parts, but hold them accountable to replace them at no cost to you.
Using their words "all the other stuff they usually do at the same time"

P

 

The service guy called me back earlier. He was a little non-plussed when I
told him that the belt had already been changed. I asked him to gather
the info re: the alleged oil leak and call me back again with the details.

If the timing belt by itself is inadvisable, why do they advertise it their
monthly flyer like they do? I've got January's in front of me and it says
"Timing Belt Special: Accord $289.95. - worn timing belts are extremely
difficult to detect without a professional inspection. If a timing belt breaks,
it can cause thousands of dollars in damage"

That's all it says. No qualification, no other info on possible ancillary
procedures or recommendations. The only thing that was told to me when
I had my belt changed was the risk with the water pump. I told
him I would take that risk (perhaps unwise, but I didn't know any different
at the time).
The service writer just called again. I expressed my concern with the lack
of disclosure re: the risks of these other items failing . He saw my point
and apparently, is going to discuss it with his manager in the early
morning. I think I have a good case - we'll see.

Regarding the possible recall notice mentioned by b18cKoupe,
I couldn't find anythng related to the oil seal. This is where I looked.
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2000...d/recalls.html

Thanks for your continuing assistance.

 

I believe the oil leak referencd was more a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) advising dealers to replace the seal retainer when servicing the seal itself.
The inclusion of all the items I listed before comes from not only prudent mechanical practices, but (as you have come to find out) an economical one as well.
A good 80% of the labor involved to do this job is nothing more than gaining access to and reassembling the belt(s) area.
Once you're in there
it's not much more involved to replace everything while you're there. To replace the belts without replacing the tensioers and guides is near criminal. (IMHO)

P

 

I took the rest of the keys in this morning and neither of them would start
the car. Seems the original theory about the key losing its programming
was erroneous. Apparently, the car itself lost the programming.
Once the immobilizer/keys were reprogrammed together it was OK.

Regarding the timing belt/water pump/oil seals, etc and the other things
that should have been done the first time, seems like my negotiating skills
were only partially successful - the best I could get out of them was credit
for the a la carte belt job I had done. Something about it bothers me
and I told the service guy I wasn't pleased with it. I guess as a token
he said he would pick up the tab for the two day car rental.

I pointed out the ad. in the flyer is absolutely unqualified. It doesn't
mention any of the other things that should be done at the same time.
He saw my point and made a note of it.

That's it - I'm picking up the car in the morning.
Any last comments?

 

Only thing I would say is if the car is out of warranty, to find a good mechanic that you trust aside from the honda dealer, they just go to far with ripping you off...160 for a battery???

Also stay on the forums and read and just give it a try doing some little things on your own, you'd be surprised what you can do with some know-how, a small tool set, and a shop manual.

Also to p. adams, keep posting man, I've been big into hondas since around 97 and on here for a loooonggg time. I just got into this accord forum since I bought a cl last spring. Your posts are always a huge help man...keep it up.

 

Sorry for not thinking of the Key / immobilizer sooner. Like I said earlier, I hadn't run into this up to now...
If you have the option, I'd suggest finding either another Honda dealer in your area or hook up with an independent that specializes on Honda/Acura's.
i assume you took them up on the reimbursement, yes?

$1075 USD for a timing belt job? Let me run some numbers for you. What was their prevailing labor rate?

P

 

Thanks for the kind words.
I may get long winded at times, but my intentions are good.
This is the kind of thing which I'll not long forget.

P

 

Thanks for responding. I have done/do small jobs on my own!
Including changing the battery on this car in the past!

The way that this battery rip-off went down is due to poor planning on
my part. I made the mistake of not changing the battery *before* I got
the tow to the dealer. Once it was there, their expensive battery was
"locked in". For one thing, I didn't know the battery was dead beyond
repair, it all happened in such a small time span.

There is a Firestone Auto Care center near me that I've had more routine
jobs done, they're reasonable and their work has been good.
They just quoted me $149 per axle for brakes, including rotor turning.
I had auto. trans. fluid, brake fluid and power steering fluid changed by
them as well as an alignment.
I did ask them once before if they could diagnose check engine
light and they said yes. Could they have done this key programming?
I don't know. I know this though, I will not have any regular stuff done at
the dealer anymore.

Not sure of the labor rate per hour. One tidbit of info though - the $289 I paid for the original belt change,
the service writer today told me that approx $210 was a labor charge.
Does it add up - is that a two hour job? three?

 

I have nothing bad to say of Firestone Stores with the exception of this one observation.
Because they will work on basically anything that drives thru the door, they can't possibly know everything about every car.
For example: Friend of mine, 2005 Buick Rendezvous, oil change.... reset maintaince light/ - good luck. (had to return to dealer to have it reset)
Go Figure.
That's why I suggested a Independent Honda repair shop. Most of them are owned by former Honda techs....

P