Alright this one has been weird and frustrating. Got a ticket to see a referee. I had two appointments with state referee so far and today was my third appointment. First one=FAILED, Second one: Changed 02 Sensor=FAILED, Third one(Today): Changed Catalytic Converter= And of course still no pass=FAILED.

I will show the measures but let me start with what i have. Everything is basically stock:

1990 CRX SI
-SOHC ZC 1.6L -HEDMAN HEDDERS
-Reads 216,125 miles but doubt the ZC was the stock engine.

Done so far:

-New Dizzy Cap & Rotor, and ignition coil(the internal one in dizzy) -Spark Plugs (Ngk)
-Oil Change w/ Mobil Clean 5000 and added "Engine Restore"( this was before ticket, dont know if this matters or if it can affect the smog test being it suppose to restore compression and so on...)

HERE IS THE RESULTS:

<U>1ST TEST=*87 octane</U>


15MPH MAX/MEAS
RPM: 1858
HC: 142/109
CO: 0.86/0.25
NOX: 873/1200 FAIL

25MPH MAX/MEAS
RPM: 2027
HC: 117/97
CO: 0.76/0.25
NOX: 812/777

<U>SECOND TEST=*91 Octane</U>

15MPH MAX/MEAS
RPM: 1841
HC: 142/89
CO: 0.86/0.11
NOX: 873/1418 FAIL
*NOX numbers went up after New O2 sensor...The only difference besides O2 sensor being new I used 91 Octane instead 87(which I used for the first test) I believe this probably had something to do with measure going up.

25MPH MAX/MEAS
RPM: 1973
HC: 117/60
CO: 0.76/0.04
NOX: 812/797

<U>THIRD TEST=*With new CAT Converter and 87 Octane</U>

15MPH MAX/MEAS
RPM: 1860
HC: 142/30
CO: 0.86/0.09
NOX: 873/1242 FAIL

25MPH MAX/MEAS
RPM: 2025
HC: 117/15
CO: 0.76/0.03
NOX: 812/642


Please help guys, I am trying my best to search and check into other sources I may need all ideas and info that can help me detect why my 15 mph test still results in HIGH NOX, even after catalytic converter and new o2 sensors.
Thanks

 

Whats your timing set at?

 

Timing is at 18 BTDC. Set to meet smog requirements....I was running advancethen changed back to specs....

 

go to 16, maybe even try sea foam

 

You know I was just reading the manual....Could an EACV be a suspect eventhough ECU isn't throwing code?
If it helps any, here and there I would have sputtering at low rpms when in first gear just about to start driving. I would let off gas and retry..Then It wouldn't happen again. About twice every two days is how its looking.

 

move away from CA Sounds like it could be your egr, or pcv system.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by djrockytharp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">move away from CA Sounds like it could be your egr, or pcv system. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wish it was as easy as said to move out of here! CA is too strict with smog.....
I'm just trying to earn my "BAR STICKER" so the pigs can get off my back. Chula Vista, CA is nasty withese cops. They enjoy messing with imports!

Back to subject....There is no egr on this car.. I replaced pcv valve. What other components are with the pcv system on a CRX?
Im assuming there is a charcoal canister right? is this the black can with vacuum hoses going from throttle body to can to fire wall?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by pandarex &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">go to 16, maybe even try sea foam</TD></TR></TABLE>

Retarding 2 degrees is still within spec's. This will drop nox!!!

You are going to have a little trouble as the ZC has a little higher compression ratio. With a hi comp ratio you raise the internal combustion temps which in turn raises nox.

A cleaning of the intake/valves/pistons might help a little bit too.(Seafoam thru a vacuum hose) Which is the only way I suggest! If the condition of the motor is clean then of course it won't help you.

EDIT: Just noticed that you have a header, where is your o2 sensor located? in the collector or off one of the downpipes? You might need to swap to the stock exhaust manifold with the original O2s location.

The evap can and eacv stuff is not going to affect nox unless there is a vacuum leak from them.

Keep with 87 octane as it burns easier and with less heat. Also a tip for nox.

 

What are you using for ecu. Mine past easily using the si ecu a tune up and timing set @ 16 deg with a lightspeed header

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thesmogman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Retarding 2 degrees is still within spec's. This will drop nox!!!

You are going to have a little trouble as the ZC has a little higher compression ratio. With a hi comp ratio you raise the internal combustion temps which in turn raises nox.

A cleaning of the intake/valves/pistons might help a little bit too.(Seafoam thru a vacuum hose) Which is the only way I suggest! If the condition of the motor is clean then of course it won't help you.

EDIT: Just noticed that you have a header, where is your o2 sensor located? in the collector or off one of the downpipes? You might need to swap to the stock exhaust manifold with the original O2s location.

The evap can and eacv stuff is not going to affect nox unless there is a vacuum leak from them.

Keep with 87 octane as it burns easier and with less heat. Also a tip for nox.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Best advice so far.

Do they check the timing in CA as part of the smog check?

One of my cars I could only get to pass by whacking the timing out so bad the car would hardly run. It wasn't within textbook specs, but it passed.

 

Yes we do check timing. If the emissions control label stated a spec and has a range + or - 2 degrees then that is all you can legally retard or advance.

If there is no spec on the label then it is + or - 3 degrees.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thesmogman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Retarding 2 degrees is still within spec's. This will drop nox!!!

You are going to have a little trouble as the ZC has a little higher compression ratio. With a hi comp ratio you raise the internal combustion temps which in turn raises nox.

A cleaning of the intake/valves/pistons might help a little bit too.(Seafoam thru a vacuum hose) Which is the only way I suggest! If the condition of the motor is clean then of course it won't help you.

EDIT: Just noticed that you have a header, where is your o2 sensor located? in the collector or off one of the downpipes? You might need to swap to the stock exhaust manifold with the original O2s location.

The evap can and eacv stuff is not going to affect nox unless there is a vacuum leak from them.

Keep with 87 octane as it burns easier and with less heat. Also a tip for nox.</TD></TR></TABLE>


thanks for the advice, i agree. as for the o2 sensor, it is located right before the cat after the headers. i cant believe i didnt do the seafoam thing! that is probably what helped me pass in march 2008. that was just the beginning of this year until popo's had to screw it up and give me the ref ticket for things that IS LEGAL ON MY CRX. he sent me to ref cause of modified air filter and exhaust. i should him i had the exhaust written off by the CHP recently and explained to him that air filter is legal due to stock intake tube not having any sensors and nothing was changed except air box to open air filter. BAR referee gave me a report saying everything was legal except smog is not passing. thanks guys i will take these advice and let you in on what happens.

One thing i kind of doubt is the timing. i think it is off, for the fact that i had to retard distributor almost all the way to get to 18 btdc. I'm checking that tonight. I thought being that I was at 18btdc my dizzy adjustment bolt should be in the center adjustment spacing. is this correct?


Modified by IIDIEIV619 at 4:47 PM 10/29/2008

 

As long as you can get it to 18btdc it is ok. Remember to jump the service connector when timing. Sometimes it will make a difference.

Try to get the timing to 16btdc if you can go that far.

The reason I asked about the O2 sensor location is because my friends and I believe that when the sensor is installed that far from the head it takes longer to heat up and give a good reading to the ecu. You might want to try to install it closer to the head if your header has a bung in the #4 downtube.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thesmogman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As long as you can get it to 18btdc it is ok. Remember to jump the service connector when timing. Sometimes it will make a difference.

Try to get the timing to 16btdc if you can go that far.

The reason I asked about the O2 sensor location is because my friends and I believe that when the sensor is installed that far from the head it takes longer to heat up and give a good reading to the ecu. You might want to try to install it closer to the head if your header has a bung in the #4 downtube. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If I had the stock set-up I would give that a shot. I think your resoning behind that seems true. And that also can be the reason I barely passed last time in march 2008.

I checked my timing last night and a tooth off. Now my range for retard-advance looks much more normal before I couldn't even get much retard out of it. Meaning with dizzy retarded all the way the pointer pointed between the red line and -2 degree. I didn't forget the jumper. I made sure idle was also accurate before setting timing. Do you think this could have been my problem? would this make much a difference? On my next appointment I will set-up the 16 btdc. Hoping this will help get me passed. I also ran Seafoam throught the sytem.

I'll post the next numbers but I got about another week til next appointment. Thanks

 

Is your new O2 sensor an OEM one? Should be made by Denso.

One can google for causes of high NOx and get much of the following advice consistently, assuming no EGR system:

Timing too advanced. Try retarding it, but still within spec. From what you say sounds like you were off a tooth in the advance direction. Also, fuggetabout guesstimating the timing based on where the dizzy bolt is relative to the dizzy housing adjustment slot. The timing light does not lie. Remember your car is supposed to be fully warmed up before adjusting the timing, meaning you have to wait until the cooling fan has come on. This may take upwards of 40 minutes with an ambient temperature of 60 degrees F. http://www.autozone.com has free online repair guides for Hondas and so has the full directions for setting timing.

Engine not warmed up enough prior to emissions test. Drive at least half an hour at highway speeds before going for the test.

Carbon buildup in engine. Do an Italian tuneup: Drive the car up the steepest, longest hill you can find at the highest speed you think it can handle. The Car Talk guys say this should not be necessary on fuel injected cars, but...

You might also try taking off the distributor housing and wiping out all the oil and dust buildup. The three engine computer timing yada sensors in it get crud on them and I theorize mess up timing somewhat. Blow out the housing with compressed air, too.

If you're not using OEM for all ignition parts (wires, plugs, dizzy, O2 sensor), all bets are off AFAIC. An aftermarket CAT will be fine and was a good guess.

 

GOOD THREAD
NEEDED THIS INFO AS WELL

 

if no one said it....

set your timing.

 

You mentioned you changed your cat. Honda's require a 3 stage catalyst. The only ones I know of are Walker and OEM Honda. If you put a high flow or cheapie on there I would suspect that. We have very similar testing in Ont/Can and I had similar readings after some research that is what I determined it to be. Threw on a brand new Walker cat and passed with flying colours.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thesmogman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As long as you can get it to 18btdc it is ok. Remember to jump the service connector when timing. Sometimes it will make a difference.

Try to get the timing to 16btdc if you can go that far.

The reason I asked about the O2 sensor location is because my friends and I believe that when the sensor is installed that far from the head it takes longer to heat up and give a good reading to the ecu. You might want to try to install it closer to the head if your header has a bung in the #4 downtube. </TD></TR></TABLE>

He's onto something,

An OBD1 engine has the O2 that far back because the sensor is self heating, on OBD0 motors the o2 sensor is on the manifold about 5 inches from the head and heats up with the exhaust from the head being very close. Having an OBD0 sensor that far away from the head with take RIDICULOUSLY long to heat up and you will run constantly rich.......




Modified by SIred91 at 7:35 PM 10/30/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SIred91 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

He's onto something,

An OBD1 engine has the O2 that far back because the sensor is self heating, on OBD0 motors the o2 sensor is on the manifold about 5 inches from the head and heats up with the exhaust from the head being very close. Having an OBD0 sensor that far away from the head with take RIDICULOUSLY long to heat up and you will run constantly rich.......




Modified by SIred91 at 7:35 PM 10/30/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

I cant see any difference between the old o2 compared to the new o2 except the connector was spliced to the old one. How cna you tell the difference between the two 02 sensors. OBD1 VS. OBD0 O2 SENSOR? I know the obd0 has one wire I believe but I may be wrong. obd1 Engines are 92 and up correct?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rbjeepthing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You mentioned you changed your cat. Honda's require a 3 stage catalyst. The only ones I know of are Walker and OEM Honda. If you put a high flow or cheapie on there I would suspect that. We have very similar testing in Ont/Can and I had similar readings after some research that is what I determined it to be. Threw on a brand new Walker cat and passed with flying colours.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The cat that I have on now (new one) is made from Maremont. It is a three-way, after you mentioned it Ihad to verify with technical department of Maremont. How much did the Walker cat run you?

 

Pretty much ANY cat you buy nowadays in America is going to be a 3 way, so I wouldn't necessarily worry about that.

2 way cats are for typically for diesels, and haven't been used on gas engines since the early 80's.

I would look more into timing and/or your 02 sensor location.

 

I do inspections in texas. Are chart states Failure to achieve a pass on NOX emissions can be due to a number of causes. Start by checking the following the order suggested here.

1.Egr system
2.o2 sensor
3.timing/spark advance
4catalytic converter
5.incorrect/faulty thermostat
6.coolant temp sensor may be open.

Plus MAP sensor, Computer, Internal engine repair.

I think you have the timing advance to much.

Did you add any gas treatment because if you did the would cause the numbers to go up.

 

i feel you on the state referee smog i failed twice on my b16 passed on the third try i changed pretty much everything that might help, 3 brand new cats one where it belongs 2 on the b pipe, TB, plugs, oil, adjust timing o2 driving it hard before the test. i also sprayed water in the TB, 87 works better. i gave up on trying to figure it out so left it with a smog repair shop. it actually came out the shop way cleaner then a new 2008 accord.( carless for 2 days ) once it was on the dyno it ended quickly compared to the other two failed dyno test. fyi those cheapo cats are good for 3months. good luck. smog on our cars is going to get harder if California Proposition 10 passes. its a way for them to get rid of old cars and get people into hybrids etc just for cleaner air and oil prices.

 

If you sea-foam, put your old O2 sensor in while you do the treatment, so it wont foul up the new one.