Okay so winter is coming and that means build time... I absolutely LOVE my car but i need more power! Ive been very happy with its performance for the past 2 years ive had it. Im beginning to burn Oil at a pretty decent rate and like i said as always more power is desired. Im going to re-build my current setup and i am looking for advice from anyone who has already done this to advise me where to go and where not to go. I dont want to do a swap because i would do a ITR swap...but i raced a ITR with I/H/E from 40-100 and he only beat me by a fender.

I NEED RELIABILITY....so Ls/vtec or b20 is out of the question......(were never meant for that much oil and VteC)

Im already planning on Boring out my block to 81.25mm with oversized CTR pistons, Hot tank block, ITR Trans with lightweight flywheel, new headers, possibly even polish crank if not too $$$.

Now for my head:

I want to do CTR cams (remember RELIABILITY), or another reliable cam, but for my valvetrain i am undecided. Im thinking of going Ferrara or Skunk. Im also going to get either JUN or Spoon deck spacer for higher compression. IDK IDK IDK!!! im confused which is why im turning to you fellow HT members for advice.

I want to make as much power as possible...N/A for now...other goodies i plan to get are Fuel Pressure Regulator, A/F gauge, and once i break in motor... get it Dyno tuned for Max hp...i cant wait

So PLEASE give me any ideas / questions / comments / criticism ANYTHING!!! I want to do this right

REMEMBER RELIABLE: Almost considered a daily driver, but ALWAYS well maintained.... Thanks Guys....below is a list of my current setup to fill in any blanks....


Engine:
-B16A2 block
-JDM B16 Ported and Polished Head w/ ALL GSR Internals
-GSR Transmission w/ Carbon Mesh Synchro's
-GSR Cams
-Type R Throttle Body
-Type R DC Sports 4-1 Headers
-RC 310cc Injectors
-AEM Hi-Flow Fuel Rail
-AEBS Intake Manifold
-Hondata Intake Gasket
-Apexi GT Spec Exhaust
-AEM Short Ram Intake
-Kenji Chipped P28 ECU
-Apex'i VAFC-2

 

Clean car bump I wanna know too

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2-ProdUcTiOnS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

PLEASE give me any ideas / criticism ANYTHING!!!
Now for your head:


</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

first thing i would do is get rid of the chipped p28 and the vafc and get a standalone like hondata... you'll need it when u get it dyno tuned and its definitely more reliable than a piggyback system... it will help make your motor more reliable as well, after its dyno tuned...

 

very true... someone else had mentioned that me as well, What about Crome? ive heard that mentioned all over HT but dont know much about it...

 

haha hondata is a piggy back and u use it with the p28 guy... so keep ur p28

 

Did anyone mention to shake that b16 block? or how about an LS crank and rods a little mini OEM stroker

 

1) OEM cams wont make that much power.. If your upgrading your valvetrain ...why not do the cams as well?? You can be daily driven with some SERIOUS cams.. I am.. so are alot of other people... consider that.

2)CTR pistons are garbage, so stay away .. They are bad for the cumbustion process and in general will leave you very little clearence if you decide to go with a bigger cam.. their heavy, and just.. awful.. if they aren't in a b16, they have no business in any other motor.

3) Two opitions..

B20, with some pistons, so you do not have to worry about the valve relief and your already at a 84mm bore with a 89mm stroke you'll make great useable power with a good head setup, a good tranny and a good clutch.
Header? I'd suggest looking into the replica hytech's or bisimoto or smsp.

You may also do a GSR block with a LS crank, but only be 81mm, you make go bore it out, but keep in mind after 82mm, you will need to resleeve your block. You make great power both ways.. which one makes more, depends on the headwork, "hence" the phrase, The POWER is in the head....

Keep in mind, using a LS crank, you will have to use LS rods, and with those rods, upgrading the rod bolts is a must.

Stop getting on this SPOON trip.. its nothing but overrated and overpriced stuff..
Buy whats proven, Buy what works.. You need to search.. obviously you haven't this has been covered a million times.

Invest in eCtune or Neptune.. I do NOT support hondata..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2-ProdUcTiOnS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I NEED RELIABILITY....so Ls/vtec or b20 is out of the question......(were never meant for that much oil and VteC) </TD></TR></TABLE>

Please elaborate.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) OEM cams wont make that much power.. If your upgrading your valvetrain ...why not do the cams as well?? You can be daily driven with some SERIOUS cams.. I am.. so are alot of other people... consider that.

2)CTR pistons are garbage, so stay away .. They are bad for the cumbustion process and in general will leave you very little clearence if you decide to go with a bigger cam.. their heavy, and just.. awful.. if they aren't in a b16, they have no business in any other motor.

3) Two opitions..

B20, with some pistons, so you do not have to worry about the valve relief and your already at a 84mm bore with a 89mm stroke you'll make great useable power with a good head setup, a good tranny and a good clutch.
Header? I'd suggest looking into the replica hytech's or bisimoto or smsp.

You may also do a GSR block with a LS crank, but only be 81mm, you make go bore it out, but keep in mind after 82mm, you will need to resleeve your block. You make great power both ways.. which one makes more, depends on the headwork, "hence" the phrase, The POWER is in the head....

Keep in mind, using a LS crank, you will have to use LS rods, and with those rods, upgrading the rod bolts is a must.

Stop getting on this SPOON trip.. its nothing but overrated and overpriced stuff..
Buy whats proven, Buy what works.. You need to search.. obviously you haven't this has been covered a million times.

Invest in eCtune or Neptune.. I do NOT support hondata..</TD></TR></TABLE>

dude ur the man, very detailed and to the point

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1) OEM cams wont make that much power.. If your upgrading your valvetrain ...why not do the cams as well?? You can be daily driven with some SERIOUS cams.. I am.. so are alot of other people... consider that.

2)CTR pistons are garbage, so stay away .. They are bad for the cumbustion process and in general will leave you very little clearence if you decide to go with a bigger cam.. their heavy, and just.. awful.. if they aren't in a b16, they have no business in any other motor.

3) Two opitions..

B20, with some pistons, so you do not have to worry about the valve relief and your already at a 84mm bore with a 89mm stroke you'll make great useable power with a good head setup, a good tranny and a good clutch.
Header? I'd suggest looking into the replica hytech's or bisimoto or smsp.

You may also do a GSR block with a LS crank, but only be 81mm, you make go bore it out, but keep in mind after 82mm, you will need to resleeve your block. You make great power both ways.. which one makes more, depends on the headwork, "hence" the phrase, The POWER is in the head....

Keep in mind, using a LS crank, you will have to use LS rods, and with those rods, upgrading the rod bolts is a must.

Stop getting on this SPOON trip.. its nothing but overrated and overpriced stuff..
Buy whats proven, Buy what works.. You need to search.. obviously you haven't this has been covered a million times.

Invest in eCtune or Neptune.. I do NOT support hondata..</TD></TR></TABLE>


thank you for your VERY detailed response....much appreciated

1) I hear what your saying, i figured OEM from Honda w/ decent lift w/ worked setup would be reliable...if not the CTR cam then what cam will give me the POWER im looking for?

2)As far as the block and the pistons, I DO NOT want to go B20, i would really like to stay with the block i have and just bore it out, if was going to get a different block it would either be a ITR, CTR, or GSR. NO LS/VTEC or B20/VTEC. Im willing to do work to my current B16A2 block but i dont want to get TOOooOOOo crazy... again reliable.

3) reasons for not supporting Hondata? and as far as other Tuning programs i have no idea?? please help...

I was only thinking of going with the spacer to help raise compression to hopefully get a lil' more torque out of her..


Clean Rice:
I need reliability in terms of not burning oil, no tapping blocks for oil lines that were never meant to be there, and something thats not going have a problem going to 8500-9000RPM... i know its mostly about how you take care of it and how much you beat on it, and i will be meticulous when i break it in and get in tuned, but seeing that tint of blue smoke out of my exhaust is NOT AN OPTION...not me, no more...

HoseOfCourse:
Great idea i like it....tell me more!


Thanks for your help already guys its greatly appreciated...KEEP IT COMIN!!!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Invest in eCtune or Neptune.. I do NOT support hondata..</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. Hondaduh

I think the B20-VTEC setups are nice for daily drivers. The torque is nice in traffic, and if you don't rev them out on an ebay chip they last fine.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1)

Invest in eCtune or Neptune.. I do NOT support hondata..</TD></TR></TABLE>

please elaborate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00b20vtecoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">haha hondata is a piggy back and u use it with the p28 guy... so keep ur p28 </TD></TR></TABLE>

oh really?

The S300 I have isn't a piggyback

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b20vtech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

please elaborate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hondata filed a lawsuit against PGMFI.org. It has since been resolved. The incident just left a bad taste in the mouths of some people.

http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15818

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by flyrod &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think the B20-VTEC setups are nice for daily drivers. The torque is nice in traffic, and if you don't rev them out on an ebay chip they last fine.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I DO NOT WANT TO DO B-20...PLEASE READ POST

I DO NOT WANT TO DO B-20...PLEASE READ POST

I DO NOT WANT TO DO B-20...PLEASE READ POST


$$$ isnt necessarily a issue here...i want a reliable motor that was designed for VTEC


Tapping into block for more oil than was designed =

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2-ProdUcTiOnS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


I DO NOT WANT TO DO B-20...PLEASE READ POST

I DO NOT WANT TO DO B-20...PLEASE READ POST

I DO NOT WANT TO DO B-20...PLEASE READ POST


$$$ isnt necessarily a issue here...i want a reliable motor that was designed for VTEC


Tapping into block for more oil than was designed =

</TD></TR></TABLE>

LS/vtec then would be your next easiest, cheapest.
OR you can bore your b16 out and stroke that.. w/e works for your check book..

JDM ITRs, JDM p30's pistons are what i'd invest in.. good compression and will give you the power you need, and can be bored up to 82mm i believe.. maybe bigger..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b20vtech &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

please elaborate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hondata is overrated, overpriced and after what they tried to do , to people who actually paved the way for them to do what they do now..

It was a end over end argument in which hondata had nothing on pgmfi.org or blunder.. They were wrong, and when found wrong and told THEY were wrong, they still thought they were right.. they are ignorent people and dont want any compention on what they do..
Why in the [freak] would you spend 550.00s on a RTP Board so you dont have to burn a chip and tuning software..

When you can buy ectune, and a RTP Board via neptune or Craig m. and still save 200 dollars??
Because its a name brand?? This is one case where i say a name brand doesn't mean everything..
Calvin is Outstanding at fixing bugs and customer service.. As well as the neptune creator is too..

Hondata &lt; Ectune/neptune.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

LS/vtec then would be your next easiest, cheapest.
OR you can bore your b16 out and stroke that.. w/e works for your check book..

JDM ITRs, JDM p30's pistons are what i'd invest in.. good compression and will give you the power you need, and can be bored up to 82mm i believe.. maybe bigger..</TD></TR></TABLE>


First...nice title

the P30 is a 81.25mm correct?? so i can use my B16A2 block and bore it out the .25 mm?

LS/Vtec is out of the question as well, my friend just built one, already running into problems...

Is there a bigger bore P30? and the oversized JDM ITR is also 81.25mm as well? Also if i bore to 82mm which pistons should i use and then?? and if 82mm im going to need to re sleeve as well wont i?

Thank you again guys...this is helping more than you know

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2-ProdUcTiOnS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


First...nice title

the P30 is a 81.25mm correct?? so i can use my B16A2 block and bore it out the .25 mm?

LS/Vtec is out of the question as well, my friend just built one, already running into problems...

Is there a bigger bore P30? and the oversized JDM ITR is also 81.25mm as well? Also if i bore to 82mm which pistons should i use and then?? and if 82mm im going to need to re sleeve as well wont i?

Thank you again guys...this is helping more than you know </TD></TR></TABLE>

your friend built it wrong then, plain and simple.


if you want reliablity just buy a ITR engine and keep it stock, most B power on stock reliabilty.

BTW if you want the engine to last you dont want to rev the **** out of it.


Modified by projectTeG at 6:37 PM 10/9/2008

 

In my first post i said that i raced someone with a ITR that had atleast I/H/E from 40-100 and he only beat me by a fender with my current setup...

plus id rather spend the 3-4 grand on building my current setup rather than buying a whole new swap... i think that would be a much better approach...3-4 grand worth of N/A work makes my toes tingle

 

well, my advice is to blow alot of monet trying get power out of the b16 or go to a 1.8 and get more tq and power easier.. i still would rule out a ls/vtec.

if your talking about beating a R on my old worn down poor poormans ITR (stock gsr block and b16 head) i would run true ITRs by about a car.

 

okay well not to bust your bubble but a ls/vtec is just as reliable as your b16 is stroked and stock. if you dont want the hassle of running an external oil line which is really easy, you can use a gsr block elimiate the rod oilers just plug then with a npt plug you can get them from ace, true value, put a ls crank and rods on pr3 pistons and you will have a 11.5.1 ls/vtec 93 pump gas motor and that motor was ment for vtec and built for it and you will make alot more power that why then you would with your b16 and cut your cost in half if you can find a gsr block and ls rods and crank and take the b16 piston out of your block and have them pressed on ls rods and just get new rings and you will be much happyier then you would with the power you want to make out of your b16 any question or need any help man pm me i will walk you through to build one and answer questions that you have on a ls/vtec i have built quite a few for coustomers of mine and built a b20/vtec for my daily driver and a fully built ls/vtec for my drag car

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DC2-ProdUcTiOnS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In my first post i said that i raced someone with a ITR that had atleast I/H/E from 40-100 and he only beat me by a fender with my current setup...

plus id rather spend the 3-4 grand on building my current setup rather than buying a whole new swap... i think that would be a much better approach...3-4 grand worth of N/A work makes my toes tingle </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ls/vtec if done correctly, will outlast your stroked b16...
At this point you have two opitions since ls/vtec is not one..

You buy a GSR bottem end, and go poor man type-r.. Get some p30's or jdm itr pistons and get a ls crank/ls rods and stroke the GSR bottem end.
a 81x89 setup will destory bolt on hondas..

Or spray your b16.. spray the **** outta of it..

I just tuned about a month ago, a jdm b16 head head, with some s2s1's skunk2 valvetrain and valves. Stock port job. GSR bottem end with some jdm p30's OEM 3layer HG, street tuned it, never made it to the dyno, but it ran a 13.7 in a GSR chassis and strolled a bolt on s2k from a 20 punch.

 

I dont know if it will work in a b16 but i know alot of people have gone with Ls cranks and shotpeened ls rods with ARP rod bolts and put them in GSR's(with whatever piston you like). I would look into RS Machines pistons. Fairly inexpensive I use them in most of my cars. They make Honda Replicas In all different sizes.

The ls stuff will cause you to get a little bit more stroke compared to a gsr and quite a bit more over a b16. That stroke will raise your displacement. Displacement + compression= power.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iluvmyef9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">okay well not to bust your bubble but a ls/vtec is just as reliable as your b16 is stroked and stock. if you don't want the hassle of running an external oil line which is really easy, you can use a gsr block eliminate the rod oilers just plug then with a npt plug you can get them from ace, true value, put a ls crank and rods on pr3 pistons and you will have a 11.5.1 ls/vtec 93 pump gas motor and that motor was meant for Vtec and built for it and you will make alot more power that why then you would with your b16 and cut your cost in half if you can find a GSR block and ls rods and crank and take the b16 piston out of your block and have them pressed on ls rods and just get new rings and you will be much happier then you would with the power you want to make out of your b16 </TD></TR></TABLE>

Even with boring out the B16?? and half the price?? sounds appetizing

^^That sounds like a true Frankenstein...^^

Ive never heard of that approach before...sounds interesting...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ls/vtec if done correctly, will outlast your stroked b16...
At this point you have two opitions since ls/vtec is not one..

You buy a GSR bottem end, and go poor man type-r.. Get some p30's or jdm itr pistons and get a ls crank/ls rods and stroke the GSR bottem end.
a 81x89 setup will destory bolt on hondas..

Or spray your b16.. spray the **** outta of it..

</TD></TR></TABLE>

81x89 setup?? me confused?

SPRAY??? eewww not in my vocabulary... the word RELIABLE however is...


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Horseofcourse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont know if it will work in a b16 but i know alot of people have gone with Ls cranks and shotpeened ls rods with ARP rod bolts and put them in GSR's(with whatever piston you like). I would look into RS Machines pistons. Fairly inexpensive I use them in most of my cars. They make Honda Replicas In all different sizes.

The ls stuff will cause you to get a little bit more stroke compared to a gsr and quite a bit more over a b16. That stroke will raise your displacement. Displacement + compression= power. </TD></TR></TABLE>

^^ That sounds similar to what LUV is talking about...


keep it coming guys this is GREAT info...