Okay everyones talking as if K-Pro is a necessity for k series engines. How much time is k-pro gunna take off my 1/4 mile time assuming i already have a good i/e/rh. And is K-pro totally safe?

 

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=154413

K-Pro

What's in the package when I get the K-Pro back?

You'll get the modified ECU (it will now have a USB port and a Hondata sticker on it), Hondata software on a CD (for Windows XP; no Mac or Linux versions although K-Manager runs on Mac OS X with Virtual PC), a 6-foot long USB cable, a jumper for Nitrous applications, instructions, and two Hondata stickers.

Do I have to send in the key and immobilizer for the K-Pro upgrade?

Not according to Hondata: "No key and immobilizer is needed. As long as you install that ECU back into the car from which it came, the immobilizer will function. If you want to use your programmable ECU in another car you will need to switch off the immobilizer in the software."

Do I need a laptop for K-Pro?

Yes, if you want to datalog or upload calibrations into the K-Pro. You can, of course, set up a desktop PC in your garage and upload a calibration from there. Used laptops with enough power to run the K-Pro software and datalog at a decent rate can be had for less than $400 on eBay and other places.

What do I do next?

Install the Hondata software on your notebook. If you have an internet connection, fire up K-Manager and use Help>Check for Updates to see if a later version is available. At this point you can also install the USB driver needed for the computer to communicate with the ECU. The ECU does not need to be in the car for that. Simply connect it and Windows will find the ECU and ask you for the driver. Point Windows to the Hondata directory and it will install the driver.

Next re-install the ECU. Note that the USB port on the ECU points forward. Once installed, the port will be next to inaccessible, so install the ECU with the USB cable plugged in. Now start the car and see if all works okay.

I installed the K-Pro and now have a yellow key-like light flashing in my dash.

That's the immobilizer-off warning light. Hondata's calibrations come with the immobilizer function turned off. You can turn it back on in the ECU Manager under Windows>Parameters>Misc.

I got my K-Pro and installed it, and now my fuel pump does not seem to work!

Do you have a PRC ECU and didn't tell Hondata? If so, they may not have made a circuit board alteration affecting the fuel pump. To check, remove the circuit board from the case and look near the connectors for jumper J160. There should be two solder pads bridged with a piece of wire. If not solder a piece of wire across.

Does the engine need to be off when I upload a calibration?

There are two types of uploads. When you upload a calibration that is not already in the ECU, the initial upload will take about 30-60 seconds. The engine must be off for that. If you then make changes to an already loaded calibration, the incremental upload will only take a couple of seconds to upload into the ECU, and the engine can be on for that. I recommend that the engine always be off for updates.

But I don't even know what calibration is on my ECU!

Unfortunately, the ECU Manager software does not tell you what calibration is loaded. What you can do is download the calibration and check the values. Hondata usually loads the plain vanilla "factory" calibration.

What is a “calibration� anyway?

A “calibration� is a set of tables and parameters specifically prepared for certain engine configurations. Each configuration has two cam angle tables (one for the low-speed cam and one for high-speed cam), a total of six fuel tables for the low-speed and six for the high-speed cams (one for each angle of 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 degrees), and six ignition advance tables each for the low-speed and the high-speed cam. In addition, many parameters can be set.

What are some of the important parameters?

Important ones include setting the immobilizer, rev limit, VTEC point or VTEC window, idle speed, lean and boost protection, temperature compensation, set the MIL light to flicker when the engine knocks (a common occurrence when you start out with a calibration), and others.

VTEC Window? What's that?

The K-Series engine can either switch from the low-speed cam to the high-speed cam at a specific rpm point (the “VTEC point�) or it can switch during an rpm range depending on manifold pressure (a “VTEC window�). You can set the lower VTEC boundary to, say, 4300 rpm at 98 kPa (full throttle) and at 5800 rpm at 24 kPA (light throttle). Inbetween those two points, the engine will switch cams on a linear curve.

What is “datalogging�?

Datalogging is one of the best features of the K-Pro. You connect your notebook PC to the K-Pro to record a total of over 40 sensor values. When you're done recording (all recorded data is on your notebook, not the ECU) you save the datalog file with a descriptive name (like “myrsx_august24_fromwork�). You can then examine the data at your leisure. This is hugely educational and can also help you find what's wrong (or not optimal) with your calibration.

What is the recording “frame rate�?

Each set of sensor values the K-Pro records is called a “frame.� The “frame rate� is the number of frames the K-Pro records every second. That number depends primarily on how many of the K-Pro's windows you have open (those that display live data during datalogging slow things down a lot), but also how fast your computer is. With a modern notebook and the latest version of the K-Manager you may see as many as 60 frames per second with all windows closed, and as few as 10 or 12 frames per second with all windows open. For best data analysis you need as many frames per second as possible.

I have a fast notebook and all windows closed, but my frame rate is still low!"

Datalogging was much slower with early versions of the ECU Manager. Make sure you have the latest one! Another possibility for sluggish datalogging is the Windows Power Settings problem. On battery power Windows is slowing down the CPU to conserve battery. Create a special "datalogging" power setting with CPU full power, the disk never going to sleep and the notebook never going into standby.

How do I look at the data from the datalog?

You load a datalog, then click Windows>Graph. Initially there is only one default graph. You can create your own custom graph templates via Options>Graph Templates. You can add as many custom graphs as you want. Each one can have between one and four graphs, and each graph can track between one and four sensors.

I am looking at graphs. All I see is lines.

A template displays up to four graphs. Each sensor displays data within a minimum and a maximum value. You can set minimum and maximum under Options>Sensors. Also, you can click on any point in the graph. A vertical dotted line will appear. If you have the Sensors window open, the exact value for each sensor can now be seen.

What does "Table follows VTEC" and "Tables follows Cam Angle" mean?

Open a datalog and also open the "Tables" window. Now move through the datalog in a Graph. With neither of these options checked, the table will never change. If you check the "VTEC" box, the table will toggle between low-speed cam to high speed cam depending on what point in the log you're looking at. If you click "follows cam angle" the software will always bring up the proper cam angle table. If you click both, it will switch both cam angle tables and low-cam/high-cam.

Will my gas mileage go down if I install the K-Pro?

According to Hondata: "As long as you have a working o2 sensor and run in closed loop, fuel economy is pretty much invariant. Closed loop ensures the A/F ratio is close to 14.7:1 while at part throttle, so the only variables to tune are ignition and cam timing. Hondata did testing on the dyno, changing ignition and cam timing, measuring the manifold vacuum to achieve a certain power at certain rpm (30 hp at 3500 rpm to simulate highway cruise). The maximum power (lowest manifold pressure) was at anywhere from 36-44 degrees of timing at part throttle, which matches the stock ignition maps fairly well. Maximum power for cam timing was between 10-20 degrees advance, which is slightly less than the typical stock setting of 30 degrees at cruise. Typcially we see from zero to a couple of mpg inprovement over stock with a tuned ECU."

I loaded a calibration and now my car is knocking.

That is a common occurence when you first load K-Pro calibrations. They are very aggressive and you'll likely have to retard igniton here and there to get rid of knocking.

What is knocking and how do I get rid of it?

Knocking occurs primarily for one or more of these three reasons: a) bad gas (combusts at lower temperature/pressure), b) too much ignition advance (flame ignites in various places), and c) too lean a air/fuel mixture (temperatures get too high and mixture ignites). If you already use the best gas you can get, datalog your driving and then examine the points where the engine knocks (i.e. where the knock count increases). If you're running very lean there, increase fuel. If you're air/fuel ratio looks okay, select the area where knocking happens and reduce ignition advance across all tables by two or three degrees. If you are not comfortable with this, have a tuner or mechanic do it. Do not drive with lots of knocking.

Why across all cam tables when knocking only happens in one ignition table?

It may look like only one because you see that highlighted 2x2 square in the table. In fact, the Hondata program interpolates an actual value by looking at the four closest values, and also interpolates across cam tables. A total of eight values determine the actual value the ECU uses. This is why you need to make the initial corrections across all tables.

Why does ignition advance at idle show zero?

According to Hondata, idle uses a special emissions ignition value.

Does long term fuel trim affect open loop operation?

According to Hondata, it does not.

I loaded a friend's calibration and in the 2-D graph, values are off the map!

That happens when you look at some older calibrations with a new version of the software. Hondata says: This is caused by the tables being uninitialised from columns 14-16 when you load an old calibration. You need to replicate column 13 into 14-16 to fix this for pre 1.1 calibrations.

My air-fuel ratio is always 11.48 at full throttle. Why?

The K-Series wideband oxygen sensor only reads down to 11.48. Most likely you're running richer than that.

How does the K-Pro work with a race header that doesn't have a secondary oxygen sensor?

The K-Pro uses the primary (wideband) oxygen sensor to determine air-fuel ratio and for open/closed loop operation. The secondary sensor simply determines if the cat is there and the primary sensor is working. Without the secondary sensor, the ECU will cause a P0134 error code that can be disabled in the K-Pro Parameters window.

What happens if I disable OBDII in the Parameters window?

Disabling OBDII turns off monitoring of the following sensors: secondary oxygen, fuel tank pressure, electrical load, and atmospheric pressure. This means OBDII tests cannot be conducted. Switching of ODBII functions does not affect the way the engine runs and closed loop operation is not affected. Fuel economy will be the same.

Some non-Type-S ECUs (like the Japanese market PRC ECU) do not support some of the sensors. If such an ECU is used, those sensors must be disabled or else you get an error code.

Can I run the K-Pro without either of the two oxygen sensors?

Hondata says: "I run my race car with no o2 sensors without any problems. You will need to disable everything and run open loop. As far as tuning goes, as long as the dyno has a wide band there should be no problems. However for a street car it is a bad idea to run open loop unless you spent time on the part throttle fuel maps and get them close to perfect."

Can I use (brandname) cams with K-Pro?

Hondata says: "For anything other than stock or Toda cams you need to mock up the cylinder head and measure clearences. To do this properly you need a pin to lock the high lobe and an indexed intake cam sprocket. Once you have established the maximum safe advance on the intake you pull apart the intake cam sprocket and pin it so that the cam has a physical stop. From memory with crowers cams this is at about 30-35 degrees advance."

What spark plugs should I use?

Caution here! Non-resistor plugs (rare, but some people buy them) can cause ECU malfunction. See http://www.hondata.com/techksparkplugs.html

How does one tune the K-Pro?

There are three major ways: 1) If you know what you're doing you can tune/tweak it yourself by making sure the air/fuel ratio is optimal in all areas and that the car does not knock (of course, that way you won't have dyno numbers to see what your changes did). 2) A tuner can tune your car by starting with one of the base maps and then optimize that map on his dyno. 3) A tuner can start from scratch, like Hondata did, create dyno curves for each cam angle, then create a composite curve and dynotune this to perfection. That is expensive. Also see http://pencomputing.com/rsx/tu....html.

I use a turbo. Does the K-Pro work with it and how do I tune it?

Hondata says:

You can start with the reflash and upgrade to K-Pro to work with any turbo kit. The K series Honda ECU (and K-Pro as well) require and work best with 12 ohm injectors. RC Engineering sell these in 440, 550, 650 and 750 cc in size. The K-Pro works with any boosted engine up to 12 psi boost, and more with a 3-bar MAP sensor. No piggybacks are needed or recommended. Tuning of a boosted engine includes:

1) Setting the cam angles
2) Retarding the ignition timing as boost increases
3) Setting the optimum VTEC point for part and full throttle operation
4) Tuning the part throttle and full throttle fuel maps to match the injectors
5) Altitude compensation - making sure that altitude the ECU sees the correct boost pressure to deliver the correct fuel and ignition. At wide open throttle on a stock ECU reads pressure in the ECU and not the boost pressure in the manifold. At altitude this advances the ignition and leans the fuel. The K-Pro fixes this.
6) Closed loop control. On boosted cars the stock ECU will hold 14.7:1 air fuel ratio after a gear change for several seconds and when going to boost from a cruise. On the road it is far too lean for a boosted engine. The K-Pro fixes this by switching off closed loop when a preset level of boost is reached.

You can skip some of these steps, but you will be down on power and compromising long term reliability. So, as long as you know what is necessary to have a well tuned engine, (and this will require tuning by an expert) you can make the best decisions for your purchase.

Does the K-Pro work with Nitrous?

Yes. There is a control panel for nitrous operation. The K-Pro switches on nitrous based on rpm, throttle position, vehicle speed, and air pressure. It also switches off nitrous before the fuel cut-off.

Why does Hondata recommend a dry nitrous system

Hondata says: "If you have a wet system and hit the rev limit, 1) the rev limit will not be there and you will overrev because the ECU cuts the fuel but the wet system keeps supplying it, 2), as a result you will run very lean. Ignition retard is essential as with nitrous the mixture burns faster. Not retarding the ignition will put huge stress on the rods.

I want to boost more than 12 psi. Can do with K-Pro?

K-Manager versions 1.1.1 and later have 3-bar MAP sensor support, which translates into 29 psi of boost (you'll need to replace the stock MAP sensor). For wiring tips, click here.

I have a boosted car. What specific advantages does the K-Pro offer me?

Hondata says:

1) Factory boost mapping with ignition retard and fuel increase on boost
2) Switching to open loop on boost eliminating hesitation and part throttle lean spots.
3) Correct calibration for larger injectors. (Meaning easy starts and good emissions)
4) Correct altitude compensation. The stock ECU leans out and advances ignition the higher in altitude you climb. You do not want this in a boosted car.
5) The cam angles can be dialed in for your specific exhaust setup. The better your exhaust, the more cam advance is needed.

The "Maintenance Required" light is on in my car. Can K-Pro turn it off?

You don't need a K-Pro to turn it off. Turn off the engine, press and hold the odometer button, switch the ignition to position II, and then keep holding the button in and the maintenance light should go out within about five seconds.

I have a (fill in brand of fuel management piggyback). Can I still use the K-Pro?

Hondata advises: Remove it. Anything that modifies signals to the ECU will not allow you to tune the car properly.

Is the RSX supposed to have high or low impedance injectors?

Any injector driven directly by the Honda ECU should be a 12 or 16 ohm injector. Low impedance injectors used without a resistor pack will burn out the ECU. Also note that there is a HUGE difference between 12 and 16 ohm injectors of the same capacity. Make sure the ohms of the injector you pick matches the ohms of the injectors used in a calibration, else your fuel will be way off.

What ECUs will work in my car, can I upgrade them to K-Pro, and are there any differences?

The ECUs for all US market RSX base (manual shift only), RSX Type-S and Civic Si are interchangeable as long as they have been modified to K-Pro status and loaded with the proper calibrations. According to Hondata, there are some minor differences: "The PRB (RSX -S) has reverse lockout for the 6 speed. The others do not. The PND (RSX Base Manual) has intake runner control. The PPA (CRV Manual) has intake runner control. The PNF has neither intake runner control nor reverse lockout. The Japanese PRC ECU does not have nitrous outputs. There may be other differences, but it would seem a program runs the same in all these ECUs." Note: Civic and RSX immobilizers are slightly different and may need to be reflashed.

I heard the RSX has a wideband oxygen sensor. True?

Yes it has (although it only reads down to 11.48 AF). This allows you to use datalogging to adjust your air-fuel ratios. Note that not all K20 -Series engines have the wideband sensor. Those that have one are the US RSX Type-S, the US RSX base (I think), the JDM ITR, the JDM Civic Type R. Those that don't: the Euro Civic Type R (retrofitting is possible).

Hondata sounds wonderful. Are there any drawbacks?

That depends. The Hondata reflash and K-Pro are officially intended for off-road and racing use only. In California, especially, aftermarket changes must be CARB (California Air Resources Board) approved and come with a CARB sticker to prove it. Changing ECU settings is almost never CARB approved. A reflash could theoretically be CARB-approved (if Hondata went through the expense of having it tested and certified) because the customer cannot further change it. You can always have Hondata reflash a flashed ECU back to factory standard, or you could use two ECUs, one factory for road driving and one with the K-Pro modifications for racing.

Another issue is that the K-Pro DOES requires both the ability and the willingness to learn and fiddle with software. If you want to stay away from that, a simple reflash is the way to go for you.

Finally, make sure grounding is okay in your car! Hondata says, "It is very important that the ground from the wiring harness to the engine (G101) makes good electrical contact with the cylinder head. Otherwise the return path for the sensors, ignition and VTEC may be through the ECU case to the vehicle body, which may damage the ECU and/or programmable board inside the ECU."

I am really confused. Should I get the reflash or the K-Pro?

Here are the pros and cons for each:

Hondata #4: A tried-and-true reflash that works with most cars. It brings a bunch of extra power in the midrange by moving the VTEC point from 5800 to 5200, and it adds some on top. It is a relatively mild tune. It has to because once it's in, you can't go and fine-tune in case you have knocking. You can also have it reverted to stock by Hondata should the need arise. One problem: it may not work optimally with your particular setup. I had a distinct power dip with Hondata 4 and my Icebox. That's because each I/H/E combo has different air-fuel characteristics and Hondata 4 is one-size-fit-all.

K-Pro: This gives you complete and total control over your ECU via a daughterboard and a USB connection to your laptop. You can monitor over 40 datapoints at frames rates up to 60 frames per second. You can change fueling, ignition advance, cam angles, fuel cut-off, VTEC, rev limit, and tons more. The calibrations that come with it are quite aggressive and you'll likely have to play with the settings to get rid of initial knock, and Hondata suggests you have it professionally tuned. You'll need to learn a lot about not only the software, but about ignition, fueling, can cam timing concepts. If you're game, the K-Pro is endlessly fascinating, you'll never outgrow it as you modify your car, and you'll learn how it all fits together. However, in order to revert to factory stock, you'll have to undo the whole thing.

Those who have a CAI and don't want to mess with the car or learn new stuff should go with the reflash. All others will be much happier with the K-Pro.

 

Wow, thats almost discouraging. Don't get me wrong, im great with compuers and learning new things but it sure would suck to input a bad value in the windows software and screw something up. Maybe theres a "reset" button that will restore the ecu to k-pro factory settings. Great writeup, but now more confused than ever lol, looks critical getting it setup

 

its safer running your car tuned then the way you probably have it now its probably running lean.

also i recommend getting tuned by a shop or someone who knows what they are doing at least

 

its not a "necessity" however if you want to take full advantage of your mods (I,H,E etc) you will get it. In effect, what you have done to your motor by adding different parts is change the characteristics of the way that the air goes in and comes out. Initially the fuel mixture is set for things like volume, velocity, and temperature of air entering your combustion chambers......your basically changing the mix making the mixture of fuel and air no longer the same which changes how your motor reacts. You have more air coming in and less restrictions with it leaving, so your fuel is not working optimally with that air. What k-pro does, or any other tuning software for that matter, is allows a tuner to change the mixture of fuel and air to give you more efficient combustion which yields more power. There are other features, such as rev limit, launch control and all that, but in a basic sense this is what a tuning tool does. The better the tuner, the better the mix at a particular point in throttle application, relative to your mods. Honestly, i wouldn't even mod my car unless i had some sort of engine management period. If your worried about going back to stock, talk to a tuner (or ask on the tuning section of H-T) and he will be able to resolve any issues you have. Good luck, hope that helps


ninja edit: If you have no idea how to tune your vehicle, you take the car with K-pro to a tuner and pay for tuning time and they do it for you.....its saved to the ecu and your good to go. Forget all this willingness to fiddle garbage, if you don't know what your doing or have researched it thoroughly, don't mess with tuning it yourself, you will mess up your motor.


Modified by Godspeed07 at 5:42 AM 10/4/2008


Modified by Godspeed07 at 5:46 AM 10/4/2008