I have a 90 Integra that's definitely not a daily driver... I plan on using it mostly for auto-x and HPDEs. However, since I don't have a truck or a trailer, and since I still like to drive it to work every now and again, I'd like to keep it safe for the streets. The two piece automatic seat belts that were so in vogue in 1990 don't exactly instill confidence on track, and frankly, I don't think they're safe anymore.

So, step 1 is to replace the belts with Schroth Rallye Cross harnesses. And since I gather that harnesses are not safe without a roll bar, I'm getting one of those too. First question -- with a proper 6 point roll bar and the Schroth DOT legal harnesses, does anyone foresee a safety/legality issue on the street/auto-x/track?

Moving on, step 2 is to chuck the stock seats while I'm at all this... I figure I'll want to have the harness bar positioned with proper seats in the car. So I'm looking at some cheap racing buckets. And I've read that some tracks insist that if seats are changed out, that FIA approved seats must go in. Should I even worry about the FIA approval? Or if I do, are used but expired seats still fair game? Or should I consider seats to be safety equipment and stick to buying new?

Any advice anyone wants to give me will be much appreciated. I've got no problem spending the money to be safe, but doing all of this at once is really sucking the wind out of me, and I just want to make sure I don't do anything stupid. Thanks.

 

Can't comment on belts. If you are getting a roll bar installed, you can always use a seatback brace if you don't get a FIA approved seat. Since you are in the DC area, I would give OG Racing a visit. They may have display seats you can sit in before buying, along with belts and other safety equipment

 

I'd keep the original belts for getting to events, then use the harness once you're there. Wearing a harness on the street really is not as much fun as it's cracked up to be if you're wearing it properly. Forget about checking blind spots.

Only other note is that the harness needs to be 5- or 6-point. I know Schroth makes a few 4-point ones, and they are not acceptable or legal for track use.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know Schroth makes a few 4-point ones, and they are not acceptable or legal for track use.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess this is the part I don't get. So tracks are perfectly peachy with me showing up with my 18 year old OEM 3 point belts, but they'd turn me away with 4 point harnesses?

 

for hpde they don't care. for club racing, 4 point is not allowed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wenlyone &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">for hpde they don't care. for club racing, 4 point is not allowed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Incorrect. NASA at least will not allow 4-points for HPDE or racing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by steronz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I guess this is the part I don't get. So tracks are perfectly peachy with me showing up with my 18 year old OEM 3 point belts, but they'd turn me away with 4 point harnesses? </TD></TR></TABLE>

An OEM 3-point will work as designed, assuming it's not torn or frayed. If the locking mechanism (buckle, or in the winder thing) is malfunctioning, you'd know before the track event, and that's up to you to have it replaced. A 4-point has that whole submarining thing going on, where the design itself is less than good for track use (that is, the track use of running directly into a concrete wall or something).

I'm skipping the debate of whether or not a 4-point will ACTUALLY allow submarining. The theory is the reason behind the rule. If you're interested in details, search through the archives, there should still be a lot of pertinent information floating around.

 

I've read through everything I could find on the Schroth harnesses, and I guess I couldn't make sense of the disconnect between an ostensibly safer belt and stricter rules involving it. But I think I get it now... so you're saying that because a 3 point goes under an armpit and will therefore help prevent submarining, the theory is that it's safer than a 4 point which won't technically stop you until you hit the lap belts? Does the anti-submarine strap on the Schroth harnesses make a difference to NASA, or is it just a hard and fast "OEM, 5/6 point, or we show you the door" rule?

 

The problem is the shoulder straps; a 4-point holds your upper body upright in place, whereas the OEM belt allows you to "fold" over the lapbelt. To my knowledge, it's an "Our way or the highway" policy. That being said, several NASA regions have instructors do the teching for novice and intermediate students. In that case, if a particular instructor was ok with it you could use it. As an instructor myself though, I won't ride in such a car.

Edit: Just noticed your location, so that means NASA-MA (my old region). They're not too tolerant of the 4-point thing in general, just a heads-up.


Modified by Stinkycheezmonky at 8:56 PM 9/6/2008

 

Perfect... exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks so much.

 

the "anti sub" strap has more to do with holding the lap belt in place than it does in keeping you from sliding under.

personally, i think i'm going with 6 points in the miata. also, you don't need a roll bar to use a harness. a harness bar will be sufficient. the roofs on most cars are generally well enough designed to be able to support you in a not-so-serious roll over. later on you may want to do a roll bar anyways, though.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by E-AT_me &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">also, you don't need a roll bar to use a harness. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think this is still the case for NASA-MA. I think they're requiring all-or-nothing now.

 

Isn't there a lifetime warranty on seatbelts and it's mechanism. So, if you think your stock OEM belts are "not safe" they can be fixed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Isn't there a lifetime warranty on seatbelts and it's mechanism. So, if you think your stock OEM belts are "not safe" they can be fixed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's not so much that I think they'll malfunction, but I just don't like the auto seatbelts. The shoulder strap doesn't have a conventional inertia reel, so you can never lock it up unless you actually hit something. And the upper buckle over the door is on a track that doesn't lock down... it turns in such a manner that it should hold in an accident, but you can still grab it and push it along the track without much effort. Furthermore, because the shoulder belt has a second reel mounted directly to the seat, you're either stuck with the stock seats or you have to rig up some bracketry to hold the shoulder belt to an aftermarket seat plate. So while I'm sure Honda designed them to pass all regulations per 1990 standards, I just don't trust a two piece 3 point belt like that. I can't lock them in place, I can't use a CG lock, and I just never really feel like they're holding me in. It's not exactly confidence inspiring, even on the street.

I'm still kicking around the option of having mounting points fabbed up for conventional 3 point belts from a DC that I've got sitting in my garage. That might be the better option at this point, although it too has its drawbacks. The other option, it appears, is to get two sets of harnesses, and swap out the Schroth DOT-legal ones for some proper 5/6 points on HPDE days.

 

There are so many seats you can choose from, the best seat for the dollar in my personal opinion are the ones that Memory Fab has produced. The quality is a step above a lot of replica seats, and you can buy FIA approved versions as well if that is needed. (if you want Recaro/Bride/OMP etc expect to spend a bit more)

Harness', if the car is still driven on the street, keep your stock belts attached, and utilize your 5point for the track.

Roll bar, well most people run Autopower. I usually hear nothing but praise about them. They are well priced with options available. Safedrives here sells them (check dealer section)

 

I would not install a 6pt cage on anything you consider driving on the street. Unless your planning on wearing a helmet anytime you drive the car. I would only a a 4 point.

As E-AT Me said, you dont have to have a cage, yea its preferable but not a necessity.

I run a Schroth 4pt for Auto-X, they are built with Anti Sub in mind but id still rather have a 6pt Harness.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by davidnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Isn't there a lifetime warranty on seatbelts and it's mechanism. So, if you think your stock OEM belts are "not safe" they can be fixed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I've heard this a lot, but I've tried it with three different manufacturers at several dealers...they all turned me down. And new belts from the dealer are EXPENSIVE!

Steronz, you could try contacting Schroth to see if their DOT-model shoulder straps would work with a 5-/6-point lap and sub-belt setup. The shoulder belts on the standard 5-point are the problem with daily driving. OR you could get one of those super long rearview mirrors, eliminating the need to turn your head to see blindspots and so on.

 

All these rules apply to competition only right?

If you're running hpde group 1 which is for novice drivers, yet you still want to add a seat and at least a 5 point harnesses. Do you still need to get a roll bar/cage? I just took a look at the NASA rules manual. And it seems all those regulations don't apply for group 1 hpde, only for competition...or do they?

 

A more recent update is that IF you decide you want a harness/seat, you will need a rollbar of some kind as well. They used to be a bit more lax with that, but as of sometime late last year I think they sort of updated it. You can choose to run everything stock if you want, so it's not like you're being forced to spend all that money just to be out there. As I said before, this varies by organization and region. I can only speak directly of NASA-MA, as I'm not aware of the specifics for other groups.

The idea behind it (I think; makes sense to me) is that regardless of which class you're in, the same bad **** can happen. Anyone, anywhere, at any time can roll their car. When they do, the same thing will happen to the car and it's occupants regardless of which group they're in.

 

Yeah it does make sense. I was thinking about getting a harness bar, but a 4 point roll bar is not that much more expensive.