Car: Integra GSR
Shocks: Koni Yellow
Springs: 350f/300r

I've been noticing more recently that when driving over surfaces that have gentle dips or lumps (as opposed to sharp bumps) that the front end of my car does tend to bob and bounce around a bit. For example, while going thru a turn that also has undulations in the road, I can feel the front of the car bouncing off the bump stops and understeering a bit each time it does this. If I go thru a smooth corner, the car is not hitting the bump stops, so it mostly corners predictably.

The reason why I think it has to do with compression damping and not rebound is that one, I noticed that while going over lumpy roads, the compression damping seems to affect not only the harshness of the ride, but also controls the sensation that the car is being "thrown around" by the road. Two, if I just turn up the rebound, it doesn't help that much with the "being thrown around" sensation, but now I get a new kind of higher frequency bouncing from the "you have too much rebound damping so your shocks are jacked down" effect.

Anyway, the few options I see are:

Find some used Koni yellows and get them revalved with more compression damping. I don't know whether I need more high speed or low speed damping.

Get some mono-tubes like a custom Bilstein - the problem there is that the adjustable bilsteins adjust both rebound and compression at the same time.

Get some other koni shock that has a wider body and ghetto rig it to fit the DC forks somehow. I'm a big fan of big pistons.

Any other ideas?

 

could try stiffer spring those are pretty soft

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mlrmotorsports &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">could try stiffer spring those are pretty soft</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2

Compression damping is essentially using your shocks as secondary springs. Don't mask your problem, fix it.

 

you dont have extended top hats do you?
thats the problem. you shouldnt even be hitting the stops.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Xian &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

x2

Compression damping is essentially using your shocks as secondary springs. Don't mask your problem, fix it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't buy into this concept. Shocks control the springs. Your shocks aren't controlling your springs. I hated the yellows I had. I had them on the S2000 and shortened/revavled ones on the CRX. Both lacked compression dampening. Hell, the stock honda S2000 shocks had more compression dampening.

but... the simple problem is that your car is too low for your dampening and spring rates. Fix one or the other. Even with 560# springs on the front of my 1880lb crx I felt what you describe so... dampen up like I did. The Motons work beautifly.

 

i'd have to agree... you need better spring control.

 

The shocks are controlling the 350lb spring just fine. It's that rising rate spring called a bump stop that the shock can't control. You don't valve a shock to make up for your spring rates being too low unless you're forced to run stock springs. Christian is spot on.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dfoxengr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you dont have extended top hats do you?
thats the problem. you shouldnt even be hitting the stops.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ill reitterate. this should be the solution

 

Here's some additional info for context.

The spring rate is not too soft for the type of driving that I do, and the bumpy roads that I drive over. May as well call it a tarmac rally setup. Maybe I'll go up to 400 lbs in the front, but that's about as much as I can tolerate. The car is actually pretty close to stock height, and I have about 2" of shock travel till hitting the bumpstops.

The extended top hat issue is a separate issue from the under-damped issue. I have the bobbing problems I mentioned even if I am not hitting the bumpstops. I'm getting (slightly) extended top hats anyway, but I only expect that to solve the "understeer suddenly when hitting the bump stops" issue.

I called bilstein today, and they said there is no way to get a rebound adjustable shock for my application. So any bilstein would be fixed damping. That's kind of disappointing, since I like turning *****. However, it's still the cheapest option since Bilsteins are only 65 to revalve vs koni at 150.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The shocks are controlling the 350lb spring just fine. It's that rising rate spring called a bump stop that the shock can't control. You don't valve a shock to make up for your spring rates being too low unless you're forced to run stock springs. Christian is spot on.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is totally true... when you have a 50/50 weightbalance and rear wheel drive. But, we're trying to fix a different sort of platform here. I've found that if I run a good bit of compression dampening I can get the car to transition nicely but if I run too much spring, the car gets pushy midcorner. So, take away the spring and let the shock give you nice turn-in and blammo, you've got a dissapearing front spring rate to work for you midcorner.

Or, you could do like most everybody else and lock down the shocks with a lot rebound so that you basically don't have a suspension.

 

Glagola, you know my background. I'm fully aware of the limitations and differences when it comes to setting up the chassis to make an elephant dance. Making the shock pull double duty by filling in for too soft of a spring is just plain backwards. If you can change the spring rate, get the right spring rate on the car and then pick the damping, not the other way around.

Your theory about using the shock to give you the response and using a soft spring to get the car to rotate mid-corner sounds like a bandaid to a more fundamental suspension issue. Basically, my position is that you should never make the car roll more to get rotation. If it doesn't rotate enough, decrease your rear camber. That's all you do by letting the car roll more, but with less chassis roll you increase total grip by minimizing your dynamic cg height increase. (ie, let the car roll more, your dynamic cg goes up, increasing load transfer and decreasing grip)

A 350lb front spring is not too stiff. And if you're at stock ride height, you wouldn't be having the problem you're describing. The points leading 2wd Modified Rally-X car in this region is a 2100lb EF running a 450lb front spring. The car works great. For a heavier chassis running on rougher roads, I'd think ~500lbs/in and a roughly stock or 1/4" lower ride height would be more then sufficient. Koni sports will handle that fine. Make sure you keep the 24mm front bar on the car to keep the outside front up even more without paying any price in ride quality.

 

I think the topic is drifting a little bit. The issue is not that my springs are too soft. That depends on the car's balance and comfort that I am willing to tolerate. The problem is that the shock is underdamped on the compression stroke. Getting stiffer springs will only make it more underdamped.

 

Hello BeanBag,

Your wrong and refuse to listen to people who know what they are correcting you about. Once again you springs are to soft.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">comfort</TD></TR></TABLE>

What the heck are you talking about, comfort? Is this a rally car or not?

It seems like we don't understand your priorities or what your objective is.

Chris, who runs koni yellows on 1000/1250 lb springs...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What the heck are you talking about, comfort? Is this a rally car or not?

It seems like we don't understand your priorities or what your objective is.

Chris, who runs koni yellows on 1000/1250 lb springs...

</TD></TR></TABLE>

x2


your asking the guys that know what they are talking about , but refuse to listen. A car with 2 inches of compression travel,, and you are running 350lb springs. That just wont work

 

Wait a second. In your opening Koni's thread, you're trying to reduce compression force, and in this thread you want more compression? Which is it?

 

That other thread was for rear shocks. This is for front shocks

 

Beanbag, there is a heavy koni bias around here. It exists because the shocks are "pretty good" for the money and Koni has excellent customer service. Past that, I pretty much hate their "yellow" line of shocks.

Here's an anecdote from my personal experience with Koni and the OTS yellows for my S2000:

So basically, I was auto-xing my S2000 in AS and I wanted to upgrade the shock but didn't want to spend big bucks so I got some yellows. Once installed, I had to slow down much more for the speed bumps in my neighborhood because the shocks were so digressive that they'd basically blow through their compression stroke and the car would bottom out... on stock spirngs! The stock shocks were much more linear in their bump stroke. This was even more unerving on high speed interstate type whoops. Basically, the shocks never instilled any kind of confidence because the car would flop around. I hated them. I prefered the stockers and they had much more compression dampening. Crazy hunh?

Here's my experience with the CRX which I race in STS2:

I went with the shortend/revavled konis because everyone in ST was running them. I've run 440,560, and 650# springs on the front. Regardless of any of those rates, the compression stroke was still underdamped in my opinion and this is on a 1880# CRX! I would still blow through the travel and hit the control arms on the body. I never much cared for that.

Also, in an auto-x environment, people use their shocks to slow down roll and pitch in transitions. When you do this with a koni, it's unavoidable to not add shitloads of highspeed rebound dampening because the way the adjuster works. It's the way the shock is built. When you crank down the rebound to make the car behave it bounces all over the place. I HATED THAT, especially since I daily drive my car. It's funny because I can make my Motons feel just like a Koni by taking out the compression and putting them at full stiff rebound. Yuck.

This bouncing is violent and can be seen at any event a Koni Yellow ST car is running. It's so apparent that since I've been running my shocks, people at Tours will come up to me and tell me how smooth the car looks. Mike King just got some Motons and Andy Hollis got some other highend shock that he hasn't installed yet.

Anyway, to be extra clear, I'm just trying to say that you don't need TONS of compression dampening.... just more than a koni yellow provides. They are too digressive for my tastes and it sounds like you are experiencing the same thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the topic is drifting a little bit. The issue is not that my springs are too soft. That depends on the car's balance and comfort that I am willing to tolerate. The problem is that the shock is underdamped on the compression stroke. Getting stiffer springs will only make it more underdamped.</TD></TR></TABLE>



Ok, your springs aren't too soft; your ride height is too low. Happy now? Raise the car up and it'll work better or leave it where it is and increase the rate. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

If you're just looking for an excuse to buy different shocks, go for it. Really.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by glagola1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...there is a heavy koni bias around here. It exists because the shocks are "pretty good" for the money and Koni has excellent customer service.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The shocks are exceptional for the money. You aren't going to get a better shock until you spend three to four times the money per shock.

You're the first I've heard of that complained about the compression damping being too soft. Most complain it is too stiff. Doesn't matter, you shouldn't be using compression to keep the car off the bumpstops in the first place. Just because OEM's tend to do that doesn't make it right.

 

So you're like, "Hey, what ever koni does is fine with me. Shizzz, I don't even need compression dampening. I'll just use more spring."

I'm complaining about the location of the Knee (or lack thereof) and how incredibly digressive the curve is after it. I suspect it's a design flaw that was deemed an acceptable compromise in order to achieve the cost/performance goal.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by glagola1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Beanbag, there is a heavy koni bias around here. It exists because the shocks are "pretty good" for the money and Koni has excellent customer service. Past that, I pretty much hate their "yellow" line of shocks.
Anyway, to be extra clear, I'm just trying to say that you don't need TONS of compression dampening.... just more than a koni yellow provides. They are too digressive for my tastes and it sounds like you are experiencing the same thing.



</TD></TR></TABLE>

Looks like we are part of a small but growing group of folks that are turning against the Koni Yellows. My brother hated them since he first got them for his Bimmer a few years back, and complained about the same things you are: too little compression damping. I didn't really notice it at first, but since I've been driving around on a different set of rear shocks, I've noticed these effects as well.

In the BMW groups, the number of people turning against the Koni yellows is also slowly growing, mainly because they now have slightly more expensive, but better, alternatives like TC Kline and AST. (TC Kline is still koni, but I think the DA's are larger body and valved differently). The Honda community might have a few alternatives like PIC or KW or some JDM stuff, but I really don't know how good they are, and they aren't very popular.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by glagola1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you're like, "Hey, what ever koni does is fine with me. Shizzz, I don't even need compression dampening. I'll just use more spring."

I'm complaining about the location of the Knee (or lack thereof) and how incredibly digressive the curve is after it. I suspect it's a design flaw that was deemed an acceptable compromise in order to achieve the cost/performance goal. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Not quite. I did a lot of work with custom valving on my koni sports. You will not find a pair of fronts that have the same valving as mine had/have. I found the SPSS3 valving to not be to my tastes and had it changed. Now I'm using 2812's and the damping curves I selected at build time work with what I do with the car and my chassis setup/driving style.

I never said that there was anything wrong with you liking the feel of more compression. That is all fine. I only said that using compression damping to reduce how much the car bottoms out is less ideal then properly setting the spring rate and ride height.

If you don't like the yellow's, fine. Like I said though, you aren't going to buy the performance you get out of Koni yellows without spending a lot more money. Oh yeah, if you don't like what an OTS sport has for compression valving, then get them revalved. Show up at nationals with your race car using koni sports and Koni will do the revalve for the cost of parts. Let me see if I can find the Moton, JRZ or Penske trailer at the Solo nats or Runoffs.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I never said that there was anything wrong with you liking the feel of more compression. That is all fine. I only said that using compression damping to reduce how much the car bottoms out is less ideal then properly setting the spring rate and ride height.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never said I want to use more compression damping to prevent bottoming out. I want more compression damping to control bobbing and the car being tossed around. The bottoming out is due to all three factors of damping, spring rate, and height. Thanks, I know that already.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Thanks, I know that already.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you know everything... wtf do you bother posting here? go pick on the kids on clubsi.... maybe they are gullible enough to listen to your drivel...