Hi guys, just stumbled accross this forum as I was looking for info for my race DC2... Hopefully some of you guys can point me in the right direction.

I race the car for an Irish Honda tuning company.... the car is a DC2 with a B18 putting out stock BHP, we run a low ratio box with 1.5 way plate diff. Suspension is currently double adjustable D2s with 1000 lb/in front springs and 1400lb/in rears.. We've won a few races but need to try go a bit quicker...

I'm not sure if we are on the right spring rates, are we close?

Also thinking of getting some roll centre adjusters.

Any other recommendations GREATLY appreciated.

Heres some videos of the car in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUGOUE9F83U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbBytqJUm8U

 

Wow this is some animal driving ! Very nice !!! These gear ratios are very very nice...

Sorry if this doesn't help you much.

 

Thanks Pat... Its a good little car but needs some major chassis improvements!

 

best integra video ever posted


You should be telling us about rates and adjusters lol

 

More information on what the current the engine setup is, and what the legal modifications that can be done to it would help with a possible addition of some more power.

 

Your rates are right around what folks here run... what sort of sway bars are you using (if any)?

Christian

 

i don't post here much but i look now and again.....but man that is a fast car major props to you. Beating those lotus' is no easy feat......and humble too, you sir deserve a good old Guinness.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Irish Racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I race the car for an Irish Honda tuning company.... the car is a DC2 with a B18 putting out stock BHP, we run a low ratio box with 1.5 way plate diff. Suspension is currently double adjustable D2s with 1000 lb/in front springs and 1400lb/in rears.. We've won a few races but need to try go a bit quicker...</TD></TR></TABLE>

What kind of tires? Have you dialed in the camber esp. front? What about swaybars?

Most guys running DOT tires run a little less spring than you, closer to 800/1200 or so, with large rear bars. Some guys (RR98ITR, Scott Rinde) run higher rates and less swaybars. Some people (Wai) run higher rates up front but he's JDM nuts.

My Prelude is running 850-1000 up front, 1250 rear, no front bar, large adjustable rear bar. It's a longer wheelbase so it can probably get away running a little looser.

I'd say 80% of the people racing with LSD's are using clutch (plate) type, with a couple oddballs on OEM or Quaife LSD's Which one did you get, Kaaz? Carbonetics? Just curious.

-Chris

 

How much does your car weigh? Looks light, 2200 lbs with you?

 

To answer some of the questions:

Weight - 2200lbs with driver. Corner weighted to within 5lbs diagonally

Tyres are 195/555/15" Dunlop slicks ( Fairly hard compound)

Running 3 degrees negative camber on front wheels

Small amount of front toe out, rear is small amount of toe in

Runs standard swaybars front and rear

Happy enough (for now) with the engine output, the track we regularly race on rewards handling over outright power.

I can't take any credit for building the car, its owned and run by a tuning shop in Dublin, Ireland... I'm just lucky enough to drive it and have some race experience so trying to help the team on chassis set-up which is something they admit to needing help with.

Thanks for the help guys!

Anyone got any experience with modified wishbones?


Modified by Irish Racer at 4:02 AM 8/26/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Irish Racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To answer some of the questions:

Weight - 2200lbs with driver. Corner weighted to within 5lbs diagonally

Tyres are 195/555/15" Dunlop slicks ( Fairly hard compound)

Running 3 degrees negative camber on front wheels

Small amount of front toe out, rear is small amount of toe in

Runs standard swaybars front and rear

Happy enough (for now) with the engine output, the track we regularly race on rewards handling over outright power.

I can't take any credit for building the car, its owned and run by a tuning shop in Dublin, Ireland... I'm just lucky enough to drive it and have some race experience so trying to help the team on chassis set-up which is something they admit to needing help with.

Thanks for the help guys!

Anyone got any experience with modified wishbones?


Modified by Irish Racer at 4:02 AM 8/26/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

Cool video's nice driving I run a DC2 with a K20 motor and my set-up is this.

No front sway bar
Adjutable rear bar 32mm (hollow)
Double adjutable shcoks
800lbs Front 1000lbs Rear
-4 degrees camber-front 1/16 toe out
-2.8 degress camber-rear 0 toe

car is on DOT R tires and weighs 2500 with Driver and full tank. I also use a KAAZ clutch type LSD.

I would say maybe softening the springs just a little. it might be a little easier to drive.

 

Are there any symptoms you are wishing to cure? How is the rear end treating you?

If I was personally setting up the car it would be quite different to be honest. I love your front spring rate, but I would drop the rear by 500lbs. Then I would install a new rear ARB that is AT LEAST 2mm bigger then the current bar you run. I am assuming its a 22mm bar, thus I would spring for something in the 24-26mm range depending on your oversteer tolerance.

That setup would result in a slight reduction in body roll, a tad more oversteer, and slightly less load transfer between the IF and OF tires. The rear would also be more compliant over undulations in the road and might be less stressful to you as a driver.

But the easiest solution may just be to remove your front swaybar and see how you react to more rear biased roll resistance. Personally I prefer to run with a front bar, but this is a free solution, and if you like the result you can keep the car in its new state, or what I would suggest would be to install the front bar back in, and add that rear bias through a larger rear sway. But this way you can test the waters first without spending any money.

Anyways, please dont take what I say as gospel. I only hope to give you something to ponder, and if anything it may spark some interesting lunch time conversation.

By the way, why did you opt for 195 vs 205 tires?

 

i would upgrade to race dampers if i were you.

 

You got big ballz man lol you look fast as hell out there, idk what you could change about your driving or car. look to be faster than most everything out there with a basically stock integra

 

why 195's?

Seems like your leaving a lot of grip on the table by running such narrow tires. 15" in 205 is easy to find in the states, 225 is pretty attainable as well.


Unless I am missing something about sanctioned regulations, that seems like the first thing I would do at this point. You can get another 120mm of tire on that car.

 

Thanks for the replies guys...Some great info for us to work with. I will try answer some of your queries.

TYRES We are running the 195s only as I had a couple lying around from my previous racecar. If 205s or 225s are the common fitment we will go for a set of those. Any particular manufacturer?

Dampers For the moment we are limited to D2s as the company who owns the car are Irish agents for D2 and obviously want to showcase their products. They are also Js racing agents so maybe, budget allowing, we could get a set of their dampers on the car in the future.

Chassis Symptons
I feel the rear of the car could certainly be looser. I would have a personal drivers preference for oversteer. A loose rear wouldn't phase me in the slightest. But ultimately I will adapt to drive the car in what is the optimum set-up. The track we race on is the one in the video, it has a lot of stop/start 2nd gear corners where traction is vital.

The maximum front camber we can achieve at the moment is just 3 degrees, how are you guys getting up near 4?

We will add more rear camber and toe the rear out to either 0degrees or slightly positive and see how that goes.

The championship has fully open regulations, anything goes!

What are DOT tyres?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Irish Racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for the replies guys...Some great info for us to work with. I will try answer some of your queries.

TYRES We are running the 195s only as I had a couple lying around from my previous racecar. If 205s or 225s are the common fitment we will go for a set of those. Any particular manufacturer?

Dampers For the moment we are limited to D2s as the company who owns the car are Irish agents for D2 and obviously want to showcase their products. They are also Js racing agents so maybe, budget allowing, we could get a set of their dampers on the car in the future.

Chassis Symptons
I feel the rear of the car could certainly be looser. I would have a personal drivers preference for oversteer. A loose rear wouldn't phase me in the slightest. But ultimately I will adapt to drive the car in what is the optimum set-up. The track we race on is the one in the video, it has a lot of stop/start 2nd gear corners where traction is vital.

The maximum front camber we can achieve at the moment is just 3 degrees, how are you guys getting up near 4?

We will add more rear camber and toe the rear out to either 0degrees or slightly positive and see how that goes.

The championship has fully open regulations, anything goes!

What are DOT tyres?</TD></TR></TABLE>

A few companies here make upper control arms that allow you get about 4 degrees of negative camber. The tire we use here is a street legal race tire and need lots of hegative in order produce any grip. So you may not need that much on slicks... No experience on slicks here.

I would definitly try to get a some wider tires on that car. and try to set the toe at 0 in the rear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Irish Racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Chassis Symptons
I feel the rear of the car could certainly be looser. I would have a personal drivers preference for oversteer. A loose rear wouldn't phase me in the slightest. But ultimately I will adapt to drive the car in what is the optimum set-up. The track we race on is the one in the video, it has a lot of stop/start 2nd gear corners where traction is vital. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you need all the front traction you can get and like a loose car then try disconnecting the front bar. This should give you a little more front traction off corners, decrease front roll stiffness, and subsequently loosen up the rear relative to the front.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The maximum front camber we can achieve at the moment is just 3 degrees, how are you guys getting up near 4?

We will add more rear camber and toe the rear out to either 0degrees or slightly positive and see how that goes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you're running true race slicks, the camber suggestions you've gotten here are apples to oranges and probably won't work for you. Guys running cantilever slicks here are running much less camber than the suggestions you've received so far... more along the lines of 1.5-2* front and 0-1* rear depending on spring rate, chassis, and driver preference.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The championship has fully open regulations, anything goes!

What are DOT tyres?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Open regulations=spendy. I'm sure you could find some serious gains by completely re-doing the rear suspension and pick-up points... same thing for the front.

DOT= Department of Transportation. A US Gov't regulatory agency that determines what tires are "street legal". This is an accepted loophole that manufacturers use to produce race type tires that still meet minimum gov't standards. In the past race organizations attempted to control costs by requiring "DOT Street Tires"... this spawned the crop of "DOT" legal race tires.

Christian

 

Camber settings are fairly easy to get right with a tyre pyrometer so next test day we we play around with those.

Running without the front bar is an interesting option....another one to try.

Plenty of options here to try on the next decent test day!

 

Nice driving my friend, definitely worthy of a ton of praise!!!

 

You might consider your rear sway bar options.

A couple of my recomendations:

http://passwordjdm.com/ASR-24m....aspx

or 32mm Sway Bar Kit [ASPEC-EGDC-32]
Civic (1992-1995)
Integra (1994-2001) Not Type R $ 570.00

http://www.kingmotorsports.com...at=36

 

Hello People, My name is Jeff, I work with this car and helped get the setup to where it is along with the previous driver who used it for the Time Attack Series where we had to use DOT tyres.

Previous driver had us disconnet the rear ARB (now reconnected), he felt that this would help transfer weight to the front left. We used to and still do run a softer front than rear (which used to confuse me - why run soft suspension with a hard ARB up front and a hard rear with no ARB on the back), however it did do ok like this.

One of the oldest gripes with the car is mid corner grip, it turns in with problems at all, but its when the apex is just hit and the power goes back down that the understeer starts up again. This has been a trait with the car for a while, but it makes up for it in other areas.

One other problem, we had a set of Powerflex Bushes in the car, but these broke up after 2 trackdays, can you recommend a good set of bushes?

Have done some tyre pyrometer testing and 3 degrees seems about right.

Engine is fairly stock JDM engine, we reckon its putting out around 215bhp flywheel, but as Barry pointed out, the circuit is designed for handling & brakes, not power, when the car ran in Time Attack it often kept up with 450bhp Evo's.

Any idea where we could get some decent wide slicks that dont have a huge tall profile?

One of our biggest problems is budgets, its a small shop and the economy here is going downhill, we also have an Ex-J's Racing CRX that we use in Time Attack, so funds are tight.

Thanks to all for suggestions, we will look forward to trying some of this out on a test day. Will leave you with some pics of the cars in action:


Being hit by a chequebook racer in our first race


Testing last year


Showing the other local honda tuner that their 300bhp K20A powered car is slower than our 215bhp B18 powered car


Humble beginnings: The 1.6 Dual Carb Shell that is now racing


Our ex J's Racing CRX:




Vid of the CRX:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQc96PEW1F0

Modified by jfcole at 2:38 AM 8/29/2008


Modified by jfcole at 3:18 AM 8/29/2008

 

Wow, sexy cars! Thanks for sharing, now I have something to shoot for with my crx... The crx appears slower than the Integra, but the gearing is perfect in the DC2! Again nice job, and you guys will fit in well here; I think we can all learn a lot from you guys and vise versa...

Anthony

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jfcole &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Previous driver had us disconnet the rear ARB (now reconnected), he felt that this would help transfer weight to the front left. We used to and still do run a softer front than rear (which used to confuse me - why run soft suspension with a hard ARB up front and a hard rear with no ARB on the back), however it did do ok like this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Reducing rear stiffness will delay inside rear "lift-off" which would delay weight transfer from the inside front to the outside front tire (this should help cure some of the mid-corner push). This would also tighten up the car on corner entry unless you re-tune alignment/shocks/tire pressure to compensate for the change... there's always a trade-off.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One of the oldest gripes with the car is mid corner grip, it turns in with [no?] problems at all, but its when the apex is just hit and the power goes back down that the understeer starts up again. This has been a trait with the car for a while, but it makes up for it in other areas.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Anytime you apply throttle, it will transfer weight to the rear and create some level of understeer. Getting rid of the rear toe-in should help this. You can also give up some of the rear camber to loosen the rear. Lastly, have you thought about going to a staggered tire setup with narrower tires in the rear? If you've gone as far as you can (or want to) with suspension and alignment, this may be a solution.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One other problem, we had a set of Powerflex Bushes in the car, but these broke up after 2 trackdays, can you recommend a good set of bushes?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Take a look at spherical bearings instead of bushings. With the slicks you're running, this should help reduce compliance and flex in the suspension.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any idea where we could get some decent wide slicks that dont have a huge tall profile?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You might check http://www.hoosiertire.com for some tire options. I know in DOT flavor they make a 275/35 15" tire that you could run up front. This might work well with staggered, narrower tires in the rear?

BTW, you might be interested in my current build... https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/2369522 if you decide to go with a larger bar, there are some early pics of the fabbed rear bar mount. They might give you some ideas for the rear of your car.

Christian

 

CRX is at the moment a good two seconds a lap quicker (on a one minute lap) than the Integra and it runs semi slicks compared to Slicks on the Integra.

Its just so light and the handling is unreal. Power and braking is around the same.

Thanks for the Insight Xian, will look into some of that.

Yes we used to run wider tyres on the front in Time Attack when using Semi-Slicks, want to try this again with Slicks, but finding difficulty finding a good supplier for slicks.

I think we have a good few ideas about things to try now with the car, lets just hope we can find the time and money to test.