Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce?
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From: Detroit City, MI, Planet Rock
Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce?
Got word of this from a buddy on a another forum I frequent - it's a wing that uses acceleration, braking, and cornering input to adjust itself for optimal performance in a given situation.
What do you guys think? Let's get some discussion going. Seems like a cool concept for series' where something like this is legal... Street Mod?
video and more info at http://www.aeromotions.com
*updated* - some Thunder Hill results: http://aeromotions.com/2008/09/thunderhill-08/
Modified by alfaaay at 6:39 PM 8/14/2008
Modified by alfaaay at 9:31 AM 10/4/2008
What do you guys think? Let's get some discussion going. Seems like a cool concept for series' where something like this is legal... Street Mod?
video and more info at http://www.aeromotions.com
*updated* - some Thunder Hill results: http://aeromotions.com/2008/09/thunderhill-08/
Modified by alfaaay at 6:39 PM 8/14/2008
Modified by alfaaay at 9:31 AM 10/4/2008
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From: cali
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (ekim952522000)
it was talked about on http://www.roadraceautox.com
It works backwards, as to the way most think it should.
IE the AOA increase in a straight line, and flatness out in the corners.
and i think you want the AOA to be nothing in a straight line and a lot in the corners.
At least the second statement is how the Chapperell (sp) did it.
It works backwards, as to the way most think it should.
IE the AOA increase in a straight line, and flatness out in the corners.
and i think you want the AOA to be nothing in a straight line and a lot in the corners.
At least the second statement is how the Chapperell (sp) did it.
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From: Raleigh, NC
I've had that idea a long while back; but had to do with the front canards/F1 style front spoilers. It just seemed like a hassle so I just never tried anything with it.
I would agree that you'd reduce AOA on the straights(reduce drag), and increase it on the turns. Also, max AOA during braking would be good too.
In addition to that, I thought about L/R brake biasing(don't know if that would help much).
I would agree that you'd reduce AOA on the straights(reduce drag), and increase it on the turns. Also, max AOA during braking would be good too.
In addition to that, I thought about L/R brake biasing(don't know if that would help much).
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From: marina, ca, 90292
Re: (vietnameeh)
how did it work when you saw it? it looks like a cool idea. I have thought of trying to make that work too as I have designed a wing,,,but i couldnt figure out how to make it practical.
The reason i abandoned it was this,,,my main reason for trying it was to reduce drag on the straights, and improve downforce in the turns. But after researching it, the extra drag on the straights from a fixed wing application for our cars added up to only a few pounds of drag ( a penalty of .5 to 1hp max ). The chapperal cars had such large draggy airfoils that it would free up 60+ hp.
Then came the issue of reliability, consistency, weight from extra equipment, series rules,,,bla bla bla
That was just my experience in looking at it. If someone could make that work it would be pretty cool
The reason i abandoned it was this,,,my main reason for trying it was to reduce drag on the straights, and improve downforce in the turns. But after researching it, the extra drag on the straights from a fixed wing application for our cars added up to only a few pounds of drag ( a penalty of .5 to 1hp max ). The chapperal cars had such large draggy airfoils that it would free up 60+ hp.
Then came the issue of reliability, consistency, weight from extra equipment, series rules,,,bla bla bla
That was just my experience in looking at it. If someone could make that work it would be pretty cool
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From: Orange, CALIFORNIA, USA
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (alfaaay)
Been there, Done that....
Yes that's pretty cool, but illegal in almost every series.
I built a similar thing back in New Zealand in 1990 on my '86 Mugen CRX Si
We had a series of rods opperated by a solenoid from the brake pedal attached to an adjustable rear wing which acted like an AirBrake.
Diabolical! is the first word that springs to mind!
I don't know whether the Airbrake really worked or not? What would happen was when the car was traveling straight, the wing gave downforce, (And probably heaps of drag?) and the car felt quite stable. But when you tapped the brakes entering a corner, The wing moved slightly removing the downforce, creating an unstable "tail wagging the dog monster" under partial braking, so that by the time you got on the brakes hard you were lucky to even be facing the right way!
Immediately Banned! But a pretty cool talking point.
Kiwi
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From: MI, USA
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (KIWI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Diabolical! is the first word that springs to mind!
I don't know whether the Airbrake really worked or not? What would happen was when the car was traveling straight, the wing gave downforce, (And probably heaps of drag?) and the car felt quite stable. But when you tapped the brakes entering a corner, The wing moved slightly removing the downforce, creating an unstable "tail wagging the dog monster" under partial braking, so that by the time you got on the brakes hard you were lucky to even be facing the right way!
Immediately Banned! But a pretty cool talking point.
Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's hilarious and an interesting thing to think about. but yes, always a cool concept to have dynamic aero products.
Diabolical! is the first word that springs to mind!
I don't know whether the Airbrake really worked or not? What would happen was when the car was traveling straight, the wing gave downforce, (And probably heaps of drag?) and the car felt quite stable. But when you tapped the brakes entering a corner, The wing moved slightly removing the downforce, creating an unstable "tail wagging the dog monster" under partial braking, so that by the time you got on the brakes hard you were lucky to even be facing the right way!
Immediately Banned! But a pretty cool talking point.
Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's hilarious and an interesting thing to think about. but yes, always a cool concept to have dynamic aero products.
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (KIWI)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KIWI »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Been there, Done that....
But when you tapped the brakes entering a corner, The wing moved slightly removing the downforce, creating an unstable "tail wagging the dog monster" under partial braking, so that by the time you got on the brakes hard you were lucky to even be facing the right way!
Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>
lmao on the way u described that. .i jus pictured clifford the big red dog n jus laughed. .lol.
Been there, Done that....
But when you tapped the brakes entering a corner, The wing moved slightly removing the downforce, creating an unstable "tail wagging the dog monster" under partial braking, so that by the time you got on the brakes hard you were lucky to even be facing the right way!
Kiwi</TD></TR></TABLE>
lmao on the way u described that. .i jus pictured clifford the big red dog n jus laughed. .lol.
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From: Detroit City, MI, Planet Rock
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (slammed_93_hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it was talked about on http://www.roadraceautox.com
It works backwards, as to the way most think it should.
IE the AOA increase in a straight line, and flatness out in the corners.
and i think you want the AOA to be nothing in a straight line and a lot in the corners.
At least the second statement is how the Chapperell (sp) did it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The video on their site actually shows the wing to flatten out in straights and give a sharp angle in corners. So it agrees with your logic. Less downforce on straight lines, and more on corners.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Illegal for most racing series might be cool for TT.
<----Waiting for Johnny Mac to chime in.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I thought the same thing when I first heard of it. Hopefully at least some series' out there can legally use it. Pretty sweet technology IMHO.
It works backwards, as to the way most think it should.
IE the AOA increase in a straight line, and flatness out in the corners.
and i think you want the AOA to be nothing in a straight line and a lot in the corners.
At least the second statement is how the Chapperell (sp) did it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The video on their site actually shows the wing to flatten out in straights and give a sharp angle in corners. So it agrees with your logic. Less downforce on straight lines, and more on corners.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ekim952522000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Illegal for most racing series might be cool for TT.
<----Waiting for Johnny Mac to chime in.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah I thought the same thing when I first heard of it. Hopefully at least some series' out there can legally use it. Pretty sweet technology IMHO.
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From: Cerritos, CA, USA
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (alfaaay)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alfaaay »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Got word of this from a buddy on a another forum I frequent - it's a wing that uses acceleration, braking, and cornering input to adjust itself for optimal performance in a given situation.
What do you guys think? Let's get some discussion going. Seems like a cool concept for series' where something like this is legal... Street Mod?
video and more info at http://www.aeromotions.com
Modified by alfaaay at 6:39 PM 8/14/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you have active aero and are trying to use it in relatively low speed autocrosses, why not use a multiple element wing instead of a slightly cambered profile as used on the BMW? At least use a highly cambered wing to get some downforce and then trim it out for straights and then barn door (i.e. make the wing vertical) in braking zones before setting it up for max DF in the corners.
What do you guys think? Let's get some discussion going. Seems like a cool concept for series' where something like this is legal... Street Mod?
video and more info at http://www.aeromotions.com
Modified by alfaaay at 6:39 PM 8/14/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
If you have active aero and are trying to use it in relatively low speed autocrosses, why not use a multiple element wing instead of a slightly cambered profile as used on the BMW? At least use a highly cambered wing to get some downforce and then trim it out for straights and then barn door (i.e. make the wing vertical) in braking zones before setting it up for max DF in the corners.
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From: Detroit City, MI, Planet Rock
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you have active aero and are trying to use it in relatively low speed autocrosses, why not use a multiple element wing instead of a slightly cambered profile as used on the BMW? At least use a highly cambered wing to get some downforce and then trim it out for straights and then barn door (i.e. make the wing vertical) in braking zones before setting it up for max DF in the corners.</TD></TR></TABLE>
From what I was told, the wing is primarily for track use and the auto-x'ing of it was to evaluate how it was behaving before taking it to a track. It did pretty well in auto-x conditions though, as I think that BMW almost had FTD?
If you have active aero and are trying to use it in relatively low speed autocrosses, why not use a multiple element wing instead of a slightly cambered profile as used on the BMW? At least use a highly cambered wing to get some downforce and then trim it out for straights and then barn door (i.e. make the wing vertical) in braking zones before setting it up for max DF in the corners.</TD></TR></TABLE>
From what I was told, the wing is primarily for track use and the auto-x'ing of it was to evaluate how it was behaving before taking it to a track. It did pretty well in auto-x conditions though, as I think that BMW almost had FTD?
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From: Cerritos, CA, USA
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (alfaaay)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alfaaay »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From what I was told, the wing is primarily for track use and the auto-x'ing of it was to evaluate how it was behaving before taking it to a track. It did pretty well in auto-x conditions though, as I think that BMW almost had FTD?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Be careful in assuming that the driver did well because of the wing and not because he and his car might have been the best overall package (compared with all the other driver and car combos) with or without the wing. Be careful not to make a logical fallacy known as the "Appeal to Ignorance", which is to say without proof that the driver's success was due to the wing and not to some more important factor(s).
From what I was told, the wing is primarily for track use and the auto-x'ing of it was to evaluate how it was behaving before taking it to a track. It did pretty well in auto-x conditions though, as I think that BMW almost had FTD?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Be careful in assuming that the driver did well because of the wing and not because he and his car might have been the best overall package (compared with all the other driver and car combos) with or without the wing. Be careful not to make a logical fallacy known as the "Appeal to Ignorance", which is to say without proof that the driver's success was due to the wing and not to some more important factor(s).
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From: Orange County, CA
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Be careful not to make a logical fallacy known as the "Appeal to Ignorance"</TD></TR></TABLE>
Never heard of that before.
Although some would say that the "Appeal of Ignorance" is how I got my wife...
Thawley – appealing in other ways too
Never heard of that before.
Although some would say that the "Appeal of Ignorance" is how I got my wife...
Thawley – appealing in other ways too
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From: santa clara, ca, 95054
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (alfaaay)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alfaaay »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From what I was told, the wing is primarily for track use and the auto-x'ing of it was to evaluate how it was behaving before taking it to a track. It did pretty well in auto-x conditions though, as I think that BMW almost had FTD?</TD></TR></TABLE>
the bmw is primarily used for autox.... and he did have FTD for some time but our region is filled with national champs.... KUBO/fraser CSP miata tooke FTD
but remember vic owner of the yellow m3 is a beast of a driver ad drive anything fast
From what I was told, the wing is primarily for track use and the auto-x'ing of it was to evaluate how it was behaving before taking it to a track. It did pretty well in auto-x conditions though, as I think that BMW almost had FTD?</TD></TR></TABLE>
the bmw is primarily used for autox.... and he did have FTD for some time but our region is filled with national champs.... KUBO/fraser CSP miata tooke FTD
but remember vic owner of the yellow m3 is a beast of a driver ad drive anything fast
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Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (vietnameeh)
Interesting, but about as useless as debating how many pixies can you put on the head of a pin. Movable aero devices have been banned from any sort of organized racing for 40yrs+.
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Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (alfaaay)
after watching the vid it really doesn't seem practal. I would have to see wind tunnel data, but in corners i think i would rather take advantage of having the whole wing at full downforce than only half. I really don't think splitting it like that would help at all. Also, i was very surprised to see how fast it would actuate, it move really fast. Lastly, especially for auto-x, i would save money for mechanical grip i can't see aero giving you FTD.
One more thing, I thought a goal for outstanding handling is consistancy and stability. It seems to me that with this it would be extreamly hard to be consistant. And if you went into a countersteer situation you would loose downforce as you passed through straight on the steering wheel, this could be the difference between recovery and hitting a wall.
One more thing, I thought a goal for outstanding handling is consistancy and stability. It seems to me that with this it would be extreamly hard to be consistant. And if you went into a countersteer situation you would loose downforce as you passed through straight on the steering wheel, this could be the difference between recovery and hitting a wall.
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From: santa clara, ca, 95054
Re: Aeromotions Dynamic Wing Assembly - variable downforce? (SleeperGSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SleeperGSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">after watching the vid it really doesn't seem practal. I would have to see wind tunnel data, but in corners i think i would rather take advantage of having the whole wing at full downforce than only half. I really don't think splitting it like that would help at all. Also, i was very surprised to see how fast it would actuate, it move really fast. Lastly, especially for auto-x, i would save money for mechanical grip i can't see aero giving you FTD.
One more thing, I thought a goal for outstanding handling is consistancy and stability. It seems to me that with this it would be extreamly hard to be consistant. And if you went into a countersteer situation you would loose downforce as you passed through straight on the steering wheel, this could be the difference between recovery and hitting a wall.</TD></TR></TABLE>
you do realize whos car this is right? its Vic Sias Infamous m3.. multi time national winning car... hes already running fat rcomp tires (335 kumhos)...
and aero does work for autox especially in situations where sudden movements happen helps keep the car planted
One more thing, I thought a goal for outstanding handling is consistancy and stability. It seems to me that with this it would be extreamly hard to be consistant. And if you went into a countersteer situation you would loose downforce as you passed through straight on the steering wheel, this could be the difference between recovery and hitting a wall.</TD></TR></TABLE>
you do realize whos car this is right? its Vic Sias Infamous m3.. multi time national winning car... hes already running fat rcomp tires (335 kumhos)...
and aero does work for autox especially in situations where sudden movements happen helps keep the car planted