Can someone please chime in and let me know whats going on.

EDIT: BLUE=Tuned Red=Untuned

Difference between 2 pulls was (BLUE)93* tonight and (RED)61* in March with the ITR Cams, Hytech header, T1R 2.5 Exhaust, and 3" SRI w/ BPI stack and K&N. New setup in June was Supertech flat face valves std. size, dual springs, oem retainers, Cometic H/G 81.5mm, Hondata IM gasket, Skunk 2 Stg 2 cams, dialed to 0/0 on the gears.

We tried + and - 5 on the timing but power was lost.
All of the midrange is gone... around ~23whp is taken away at 6500.




Modified by WheaMyRyceGo at 11:56 PM 6/25/2008

 

wow. wtf, id like to hear an educated explanation for this...

 

By " we tried - and + 5 on the timing" what timing are you referring to????

Whats your current compression?

Did you try degreeing in your cams?

If you left the cams at 0/0 I bet thats a pretty large part of your problem.

Was the car retuned?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WheaMyRyceGo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can someone please chime in and let me know whats going on.

Difference between 2 pulls was (BLUE)93* tonight and (RED)61* in March with the ITR Cams, Hytech header, T1R 2.5 Exhaust, and 3" SRI w/ BPI stack and K&N. New setup in June was Supertech flat face valves std. size, dual springs, oem retainers, Cometic H/G 81.5mm, Hondata IM gasket, Skunk 2 Stg 2 cams, dialed to 0/0 on the gears.

We tried + and - 5 on the timing but power was lost.
All of the midrange is gone... around ~23whp is taken away at 6500.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why didn't you adjust the cam gears? Were the cams degreed? Did you try different vtec x-over points? Was the car actually retuned or just dynoed after cam install? What does the rest of the build consist of? Block, head, pistons, CR, etc.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BMo Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">By " we tried - and + 5 on the timing" what timing are you referring to???? Degreeing the timing by 5

Whats your current compression? Not sure, everything is stock, but the original owner put in factory overbore pistons/rings

Did you try degreeing in your cams? no

If you left the cams at 0/0 I bet thats a pretty large part of your problem.

Was the car retuned? yes it was retuned with the old map
</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

i was once told be a very wise man that comparing dyno's from different days could possibly send the average man towards the brink of insanity

 

Did you go back to the ITR cams and regain the lost power?

My bet is on the engine being hurt.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rollo Lawson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i was once told be a very wise man that comparing dyno's from different days could possibly send the average man towards the brink of insanity</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ahh memories

Now I don't know what the temp. is in "you wish, thieves" but I'm going to assume its a bit hotter in june than it is in march

Degree the cams in y0.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did you go back to the ITR cams and regain the lost power?

My bet is on the engine being hurt.</TD></TR></TABLE>

no i have not tried that


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BMo Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ahh memories

Now I don't know what the temp. is in "you wish, thieves" but I'm going to assume its a bit hotter in june than it is in march

Degree the cams in y0.</TD></TR></TABLE>

will the degree in cams make a HUGE difference?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WheaMyRyceGo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

will the degree in cams make a HUGE difference?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It can.

Also you say you have a stock rebuild thats just bored .5mm over?
So stock oversized pistons?
What block is this?
Gsr?

If its a usdm gsr i'd say you have nowhere near enough compression to run those cams.....

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WheaMyRyceGo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">will the degree in cams make a HUGE difference?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No. S2S2 cams are a "drop in" camshaft presuming you have adequate VT. Sure you can degree them, but it's not gonna make a dramatic difference. Have you done a compression test?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BMo Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It can.

Also you say you have a stock rebuild thats just bored .5mm over?
So stock oversized pistons?
What block is this?
Gsr?

If its a usdm gsr i'd say you have nowhere near enough compression to run those cams.....</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its factory bored .25 over, the car is a B18c5
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No. S2S2 cams are a "drop in" camshaft presuming you have adequate VT. Sure you can degree them, but it's not gonna make a dramatic difference. Have you done a compression test?</TD></TR></TABLE>

yes, 190 185 185 190


I was hoping at least 190 WHP


Modified by WheaMyRyceGo at 11:02 PM 6/25/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by WheaMyRyceGo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


yes, 190 185 185 190


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Assuming that test was done properly thats your problem right thurrrrrrr

By properly I mean engine at operating temp and the throttle open.

 

Was the compression test performed after the horsepower loss?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Was the compression test performed after the horsepower loss?</TD></TR></TABLE>

the compression test was done after a couple runs, we couldnt figure out why it was so low so we did the test

BTW: that first run (red) was UNTUNED and that 2nd run(blue) is tuned...

 

A couple things I can think of...

1. Since you dont have compression test #'s from before its tough for them to really mean anything. You obviously dont have a "dead" cylinder though.

2. When you installed the new cams did you absolutely verify they were installed correctly and not a tooth off?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A couple things I can think of...

1. Since you dont have compression test #'s from before its tough for them to really mean anything. You obviously dont have a "dead" cylinder though.

before it was 225 across

2. When you installed the new cams did you absolutely verify they were installed correctly and not a tooth off?

i had my friend, a honda tech install them
</TD></TR></TABLE>




Modified by WheaMyRyceGo at 8:20 AM 6/26/2008

 

Even Honda "tech's" make mistakes. The fact that the cam gears arent stock just further likens this scenario. Did you verify for yourself that everything is lined up right?

 

go set your engine to TDC and take a good look at your cam gears.

Btw if you find them to be one tooth off please don't brush it off as being "only ONE tooth off", my timing belt started to shred a few days after I started revving to 9000 and it skipped one tooth and my car ran like complete dog ****......hell it wouldnt go faster than 60mph, seriously.

If your timing is fine then the fact that you went from having 225psi across all 4 to 190 185 185 190 could play a large roll in the power decrease, also the fact that you dyno'd 3 months later can play a large roll in making less power.

I only gained 6whp from having my head ported, know why? Cuz I redynoed 2 months later in 30 degree hotter weather. Temp plays a big role.

 

What is the compression ratio?
It looks like on the ITR cams vtec is around 5500rpm.
What was the vtec set at for the S2S2 cams? I know it was tuned but usually you can see something on the dyno graph where vtec engages.
Tuned on Crome?
The one other thing that seemed a bit odd was the ITR number with the Hytech header. I would have thought with that combination you would have been 185-190whp to start with.

 

Bent valve, That'd be my guess.

Your AFR sucks , was your tuner tuning you blind?? Looks to be around 13.9's 13.8's
Here's a good thing to do.."[freak] compression testing" Because that's going to tell you 1 thing about 3 rings..
Leak down test it and come back.. my guess.. You have a problem in the block or the head.. S2S2's with NO tuning dropped in my car almost gained 8whp everywhere.. and almost 12 more peak power..
Figure out whats wrong first..Go back to the dyno and mess with the exhaust first, leaving the intake at 0 and adjust your intake from there.. Your doing this 5+/- degress together i'm sure you probably bent a valve because you didn't clay your motor..

The rule of thumb is dont seperate the cams by more then 4/5 degress
That means if your intake is +2 Dont put your exhaust -5 unless you know your clearences thats almost 7 degrees of seperation..
What was it tuned on?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Even Honda "tech's" make mistakes. The fact that the cam gears arent stock just further likens this scenario. Did you verify for yourself that everything is lined up right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

no, but i will give him a call and have him recheck everything with me there

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BMo Tuning &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">go set your engine to TDC and take a good look at your cam gears.

Btw if you find them to be one tooth off please don't brush it off as being "only ONE tooth off", my timing belt started to shred a few days after I started revving to 9000 and it skipped one tooth and my car ran like complete dog ****......hell it wouldnt go faster than 60mph, seriously.

If your timing is fine then the fact that you went from having 225psi across all 4 to 190 185 185 190 could play a large roll in the power decrease, also the fact that you dyno'd 3 months later can play a large roll in making less power.

well the compression tester was different

I only gained 6whp from having my head ported, know why? Cuz I redynoed 2 months later in 30 degree hotter weather. Temp plays a big role.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by OH_1fstgsr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the compression ratio? not sure
It looks like on the ITR cams vtec is around 5500rpm.
What was the vtec set at for the S2S2 cams? at 5400
I know it was tuned but usually you can see something on the dyno graph where vtec engages.
Tuned on Crome? yes
The one other thing that seemed a bit odd was the ITR number with the Hytech header. I would have thought with that combination you would have been 185-190whp to start with. Yea, i just wasted all of this money on quality parts and i have less power than what i started with.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by IntegraType-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bent valve, That'd be my guess. I just had the head redone

Your AFR sucks , was your tuner tuning you blind?? Looks to be around 13.9's 13.8's
Here's a good thing to do.."[freak] compression testing" Because that's going to tell you 1 thing about 3 rings..
Leak down test it and come back.. my guess.. You have a problem in the block or the head.. S2S2's with NO tuning dropped in my car almost gained 8whp everywhere.. and almost 12 more peak power..
Figure out whats wrong first..Go back to the dyno and mess with the exhaust first, leaving the intake at 0 and adjust your intake from there.. Your doing this 5+/- degress together i'm sure you probably bent a valve because you didn't clay your motor..

The rule of thumb is dont seperate the cams by more then 4/5 degress
That means if your intake is +2 Dont put your exhaust -5 unless you know your clearences thats almost 7 degrees of seperation..


What was it tuned on? Crome Pro</TD></TR></TABLE>


Im having my friend readjust the valves and illl have him take a look at the TDC to see if its skipping a tooth.

 

This was tuned on NepTune with the previous map on the stock obd2 computer. I tried adding fuel across the board between 11.8 to 12.2, this combo liked ~12.8 in Vtec. This is metering at the collector as the wideband on the graph is showing out the tailpipe which will read leaner by ~.5 or so. I tried advancing and retarding ignition timing from it's current state with no change in power and torque or losing both.

 

Like IntegraType-R said this motor sounds like it has bent valves. No tuner in the world can make power in that situation.

 

Hope you figure it out.