b16a in an 89 hatch. Interested in running a heavier than stock flywheel.

I have run a 12 pound ACT and the stock 18 pound flywheel... Where do I find something a bit heavier? Perhaps 22-24 pounds?

Any insight appreciated.

Thanks,
-Bob

 

It'll be hard to find something like that as it's never really a good idea with anything Hondas do, there is a use for it... but if you know it you know why a honda motor wouldn't be well suited for it.

Pray tell why ?

 

The oddity of this situation has me curious. I feel like I'm about to learn something.

Subscribed.

 

If it was b-series maybe a crv flywheel. mine is pretty heavy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by newby_j &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it was b-series maybe a crv flywheel. mine is pretty heavy</TD></TR></TABLE>

+1, why do you want the weightier wheel though - especially with your torqueless wonder?

 

I hope this isn't due to a clutch engagement issue.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Pray tell why ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i think someone gave him wrong information

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Pray tell why ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Fair enough question.

Curiosity and calculated observation. Doesn't mean this is right (or right for anybody else) but when you look at the math, it seems like a reasonable idea.

I know what my car did at the strip with the stock 18 pound flywheel. I installed a 12 pound flywheel and hit the strip again.

18 pound stock flywheel, I was able to stay on vtec with 8-10 PSI in my slicks at launch. Was launching at 6200-6600

12 pound flywheel, I fell off vtec and had more bog. Top compensate I had to raise my launch RPM to 7800, and should have gone higher yet, and had to raise my slick pressure up to 12 to take some bog out of it.

It could be that there was to much VHT down, or some inconsistency like that. But it just did not feel as good, and my times were .15-.2 slower on the track, consistently. and 3-5 mph slower too.

So, based on having to raise my launch RPM to eliminate bog, raising slick air pressure to eliminate bog, and all I changed was the flywheel, it seems logical to put the stock flywheel back in, and possibly look for a heavier flywheel as the next thing to try.

Small horsepower motor, and more stored kinetic energy is starting to make more sense.

I like it on the street, but if my only goal is a better launch at a drag strip then it seems like a decent idea, based on my setup.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vectorsolid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Fair enough question.

Curiosity and calculated observation. Doesn't mean this is right (or right for anybody else) but when you look at the math, it seems like a reasonable idea.

I know what my car did at the strip with the stock 18 pound flywheel. I installed a 12 pound flywheel and hit the strip again.

18 pound stock flywheel, I was able to stay on vtec with 8-10 PSI in my slicks at launch. Was launching at 6200-6600

12 pound flywheel, I fell off vtec and had more bog. Top compensate I had to raise my launch RPM to 7800, and should have gone higher yet, and had to raise my slick pressure up to 12 to take some bog out of it.

It could be that there was to much VHT down, or some inconsistency like that. But it just did not feel as good, and my times were .15-.2 slower on the track, consistently. and 3-5 mph slower too.

So, based on having to raise my launch RPM to eliminate bog, raising slick air pressure to eliminate bog, and all I changed was the flywheel, it seems logical to put the stock flywheel back in, and possibly look for a heavier flywheel as the next thing to try.

Small horsepower motor, and more stored kinetic energy is starting to make more sense.

I like it on the street, but if my only goal is a better launch at a drag strip then it seems like a decent idea, based on my setup. </TD></TR></TABLE> While you are thinking, sadly I don't mean it rudely since I applaud anyone trying to figure things out and doing tests to find it out but you are off.

Yes, I'd look into other things first, and one of the ideas *of many ideas* that popped in my head, is what Kip mentioned, what kind of clutch are you running?

A lot of the fastest cars run silly light fly wheels, for example one of bisimotos old cars runs a 5.6 lb flywheel.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> While you are thinking, sadly I don't mean it rudely since I applaud anyone trying to figure things out and doing tests to find it out but you are off.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

And that's possible. No offense taken. I don't need an ego stroke, I need to make the car faster. If I'm wrong, excellent, we've found the problem.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes, I'd look into other things first, and one of the ideas *of many ideas* that popped in my head, is what Kip mentioned, what kind of clutch are you running?

A lot of the fastest cars run silly light fly wheels, for example one of bisimotos old cars runs a 5.6 lb flywheel.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

For perspective, let's remember this is a stock b16a with an MSD ignition and a DC header and a better air filter. Perhaps 150-160hp at the crank. GSR trans with 4.40 fdr.

Running all ACT clutch stuff.
60110 flywheel
maxx extreme XXR6 500 foot pound clamping extreme clutch.

Nah just messing with you on the clutch.
it's actually the ai4-hdG6 set. Seems reasonable, based on intended use and abuse. I had the ACT guy recommend that over the next more aggressive setup. which I believe is the xtg6. Forgive me if I got those numbers wrong.

It's aggressive and chatters a bit. Just like the say it will.

 

Not to be a dick but i think the power you're running into is lack of power. Think about it... unless you have enough power at launch to pull you up to "the vtexor regions, launching on slicks is ALWAYS going to bog you. The reason you felt the difference so much with the lightened flywheel is because it drastically reduces the amount of spinning torque that gets applied to the engine side of the clutch.

from your set up.... without adding any power I'd say a shorter FD would be key for getting you better launches. That or a LS bottom end GLW the season, hope you have fun out there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ComeOnKip &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not to be a dick but i think the power you're running into is lack of power. Think about it... unless you have enough power at launch to pull you up to "the vtexor regions, launching on slicks is ALWAYS going to bog you. The reason you felt the difference so much with the lightened flywheel is because it drastically reduces the amount of spinning torque that gets applied to the engine side of the clutch.

from your set up.... without adding any power I'd say a shorter FD would be key for getting you better launches. That or a LS bottom end GLW the season, hope you have fun out there.</TD></TR></TABLE>Wonderful advice as normal sir

vector for being open minded and listening we thank you it makes helping people ever so much nicer and you'll end up happier in the end of the day as well.

 

You dont have enough torque and/or your tranny is not aggressive enough for how heavy the car is... or your slicks are too big.

tune your setup to work with your lightened flywheel, dont tune your flywheel to work with your setup.

IMO.

What size are your slicks?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You dont have enough torque and/or your tranny is not aggressive enough for how heavy the car is... or your slicks are too big.

tune your setup to work with your lightened flywheel, dont tune your flywheel to work with your setup.

IMO.

What size are your slicks?</TD></TR></TABLE> I assume 22s from his sig, and yes for a mostly stock b16 that's too large, imho.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wonderful advice as normal sir </TD></TR></TABLE>

Save the flirting for later, lets help this OP

I think a 4.7 would be the best upgrade. Not only does it make winding roads WAYYYY more fun, but it should help alot with your holeshot issues. Or maybe try DR's... see how that works out.

 

Just for the sake of curiosity, I'd like to see how it goes with a heavy flywheel. I suspect there's something gained and something else lost...but I dont know exactly what it would be.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ***$nyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I assume 22s from his sig, and yes for a mostly stock b16 that's too large, imho.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Possible, but that's what I've always run on it. And it was turning better times, at lower Launch RPMS, with the stock flywheel.

Car is lighter than in the past. Right at 2000# now with driver.

Also, I think it's fair to note that making change to the FDR would be a work around to the problem I believe we are witnessing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You dont have enough torque and/or your tranny is not aggressive enough for how heavy the car is... or your slicks are too big.

tune your setup to work with your lightened flywheel, dont tune your flywheel to work with your setup.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I believe tuning the setup, includes looking at changes made. Light flywheel slowed the car, it can't stay on vtec during launch.

I'd love to hear some setup ideas that might help. What do you suggest? I've played with ignition timing, tire pressure, launch RPM's, and various airfilters and routing. Tuning should be to look at what you have, and make it as good as it can be, at that time, based on the parameters you can effect. I changed everything at my disposal. Tire pressure and launch RPM's made the biggest changes.

Remember, the only thing changed was the flywheel. I agree on the lack of horsepower and torque there isn't much to work with. In a drag race, dumping the clutch at 7000 rpm on an 18 pound flywheel is a HUGE increase in kinetic or stored energy over a 12 pound flywheel. Who's handy with that kind of math?

I'm here to tell you, I believe I've lost that stored energy, it appears to be exactly that, as everything I did to take bog out of the car points to it. Such as, airing up the slicks, and raising launch RPM's.

To change the FDR would be silly, IMHO. It would add a 3rd-4th shift, and subsequent delays. The car now, crosses the finish line perfectly redlined and just about bouncing off the rev limiter in 3rd. The shift light is coming on as I cross, and if I hold it WOT for just a mere 1 second longer after crossing the line, it's bouncing off the rev limiter. That to me (aside from working with the parameters of the torque curve) is about as perfect as it gets.

Any changes in gearing would alter that, and in a bad way. I'm only in 1st gear now, for what 2.5 seconds? First gear gets over in a hurry.

With a crappy clutch, the car would do a 2.15 60' (and some stupidity on my part with over inflated slicks last time). With this 12# flywheel the car did a 2.037 60'. It was a shade faster, BUT, I should be in the 1.8-1.9's on the 60'. This car is light. and it appears I have more traction than I can stand, as the 60' got better with more air in the slicks on this last race weekend.

Stored energy. I lost it. With it, I could hold vtec on a launch, can't without it = slower ET's.

Here's a video of the car from this last weekend.
I think I had 12 pounds in the slicks this run, and the bog was not as bad, as I could stay closer to the vtec point with less contact patch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAwvMFqFo8E

The primer spot on the hood... I painted that on there, on purpose, to create that "what a piece of **** feeling" it creates in people that haven't raced it yet. ...lol...

Modified by vectorsolid at 6:41 PM 6/23/2008


Modified by vectorsolid at 6:46 PM 6/23/2008

 

i no im a noob to hondatech, but i agree with the OP. Ive also heard it is better to keep a heavier flywheel then to exchange it for a lighter weight one, reason being that a heavy flywheel does not lose as much kinetic energy ( or turning torque i guess u could say ) as would a lighter flywheel. In other words it stores more power and decreases the amount of powerloss between shifts.This is esp. important for our torqueless motors when it comes to drag racing.

 

Flywheel physics. Who's handy with math?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel#Physics

 

With a 1.6L, I think you've got the right ideal about the flyweight. I would not go heavier than stock because you could run in to a problem with the number 5 main bearing down the road.

Next time I'm at Fort Peck, I'll look you up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vectorsolid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Flywheel physics. Who's handy with math?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel#Physics


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Umm...this is what am understanding from it. The site doesnt tell you how the energy works in the flywheel...it just says what the energy in the flywheel is. However, from the site its easy to see that if both flywheels are spinning at the same speed then the heavier one has more energy.

Here is an example to better understand what i think:
Assume both flywheels have the same energy (lighter one must be spinning faster). At launch, both flywheels lose the SAME energy since they are both technically pulling the exact same car. This implies that the lighter flywheel will slow down more than the heavier one...not because it loses more energy...but because its energy is related to its rpm. (probably why you go out of vtec)

Since the engine produces a specific amount of energy, and from the equation on wikipedia, it is assumed that it will turn the the lighter flywheel faster in less time when compared to the heavier flywheel. (make the car accelerate faster).

So I think you should try and figure out a way to launch with the lighter flywheel while still in vtec. I am positive that comparing such a case with your heavier flywheel case will yield a better time.

This is just what I think and got out of the site...may be completely off...haha.
But hey...it gives you something to think about I guess

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Next time I'm at Fort Peck, I'll look you up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You either, hunt or fish, or have family out there. Ain't no other reason to go to Fort Peck ...ever... ...lol...

Bring your car, Malta's got an 1/8 mile drag strip now. And their trying really hard. Kudos to them.
http://www.pcmotorsports.org/

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Intocable &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So I think you should try and figure out a way to launch with the lighter flywheel while still in vtec. I am positive that comparing such a case with your heavier flywheel case will yield a better time.

This is just what I think and got out of the site...may be completely off...haha.
But hey...it gives you something to think about I guess</TD></TR></TABLE>

And a friendly debate it is. I'm launching at 7700 now. Only have about 400rpm left to try. And I don't feel it's going to be enough. Going from 12pound to 18pound is a 50% increase in weight. All things being equal, if I was launching and happy with 6400-6600 with the 18, to get the same amount of stored energy release I'd likely have to spin that 12 pounder at say 11,000rpm.

Where's the math Guru's when you need them?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I would not go heavier than stock because you could run in to a
problem with the number 5 main bearing down the road.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good information. Hadn't thought about that at all. All things being equal, and the thing was balanced, I wouldn't think there would be a problem, unless the additional static weight were troublesome. I have no real opinion on that.

I mentioned this drop in ET to the shop that's doing the build for my turbo car. Conversation went like this. I put a light flywheel on my car and it's bogging outta the hole. Did you put more air in the slicks? yes. Did it help with the bog? yes. did you make any other changes? no. Then put the heavier flywheel back on dumbass.... ...lol...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vectorsolid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You either, hunt or fish, or have family out there. Ain't no other reason to go to Fort Peck ...ever... ...lol... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Nah, I'm helping the hydro-electric plant on some upgrades turbine-generator upgrades.

 

Well putting the original flywheel back on might not be a bad idea if you're trying to get the most out of where you are at.

But down the road if you want to venture towards higher hp numbers, it would be like working backwards, cause as soon as you have enough power to not bog, you're going to want that lightweight flywheel back on there IMO.