Originally Posted by 98vtec

now how about we get into a discussion of why the h23 is weak? I havent spun my h23 near as high as i want to, considering what can be gained in the 1/4 by spinning the h motor higher, but i am interested in learning what the h23/f22 crank has against it.

How is the h22 and f23 crank stronger than the h23? Is the h23 composed of a different metal than that of the h22 and f23?
and i would prefer not to hear "just spin it high because my crank broke." if I am going to allow this discussion to continue then i want to know reasoning and scientific evidence portraying the negative sides of using an h23 or f22 crank.

Rosko's crank broke and a guy on preludzone had a turbo h23 crank which broke in the exact same spot as rosko's, but he didnt spin the motor near as high as rosko did.

Originally Posted by 2point6

2 R&D dyno welded H22 cranks broke.
2 Castillo's reworked F23 cranks broke.

1 MCC rewelded 98mm H22 crank still going after 80k Miles.
2 Bisi modified H23 cranks still spinning...High. Not sure what to tell you. I have always been a proponet to proper balancing and oil clearancing for these cranks to live.

Both h23 cranks are being used with a set of aluminum rods and ultralight steel rods respectively. I am sure the lighter rotating mass has an effect.

Originally Posted by 98vtec

see thats the same with mine. Although i do not have the tools to make absolute measurements, i used what i had (plastigage) and configured the crank mains so that the middle main was "looser" than the rest and i have the crank, rods, and pistons balanced.

what was all done with the welded and reworked cranks? offset grinding?

i know you had the f23 crank offset grinded and used gsr rods, is that the same crank you are referring to which has ran 80k miles? what kind of rpm does that motor see?

Originally Posted by NAH2B

no problem man, it was never my intention to argue.

you probly would have recognized me better by my old username "missing gears". if this discussion were to have taken place a couple years ago we would probably still be arguing as it was one of my favorite things to do back then lol

i have been out of the game for the last 2 years after selling my old car and having 2 beautiful children so i am just now getting caught up on the latest news over these last 2 months since putting my new car together (see sig).

nowadays arguing is one of my least favorite things to do and 90% of the time i would rather turn and look the other way alot changes when you have kids. you see everything differently and get a whole new outlook on life. time goes by so fast and life is very short.

sorry i have gotten off topic guys. 2point6, honestly i was not familiar w/ you until now and its obvious you have done alot w/ the h motor so to you and keep up the good work.

blake, i can understand you wanting to find out the deal w/ the h23 cranks and honestly so do i but we should probably start another thread to do it in cause i think this poor guys thread has already gotten away from him

it would be best to take a couple of each crank to an expert in metallury and let the expert do what he does best

i have never gotten a "scientific reason" for the h23 crank being weaker, i have just seen and heard first hand accounts of them breaking and i have never seen a broken h22 crank.

for all we know both cranks could be constructed the exact same but since the h23 crank has more stroke it will obviously see more stress and could fail easier. that would be my reasoning IF both cranks are constructed the same but again it would take an expert to tell us that. so given the fact that the crank w/ more stroke will obviously see more stress i for one will only build another big motor using an aftermarket crank. again thats just my opinion and outlook.

dave and mark braunning have broken numerous h23 cranks before finally haveing crower design a custom line of cranks just for them. since then they have yet to break another crank. norris has broken one that i know of, but he also went to an aftermarket crower crank shortly after if i remember his words correctly. he ended up running a 103mm stroke at the end before switching to k series.

my h23 crank broke at an existing internal crack which prior to me assembling the motor did not show up during magnafluxing. magnafluxing will only show external flaws, to see an internal crack you must use an xray which is becoming more and more difficult to find today. the crank broke while i was in the waterbox doing my burnout at the track. it broke between the 4th rod journal and the 5th main journal in the narrow section of the counterweight. believe it or not i was able to start the car and drive it through the pits and back onto the trailer.

i had the crank looked at by a couple machinists and they both noticed the same thing. where it had cracked there was an old section in the center which was dark in color from continuous heating cycles and there was also the freash outer section of the crack which was very bright and shiny. it was obvious that most of this break was pre-existing and had been there all along. it only broke the rest of the way after applying so much more stress to it from the power that the motor was now making. the machinists have seen this plenty of times in domestic cranks. this crank had a good amount of miles on it before i used it in my build. there was noway of telling if the old crack was there since the crank was manufactured or if it happened sometime afterwards.

so after having this happen to me and then speaking w/ several other racers/builders and also seeing rosko have the same identical circumstances happen, while at this time still yet to see or hear of a single h22 crank failing i have made my own determination that h23 cranks are weaker than their h22 counterparts if for no other reason than they simply see more stress over the years due to the added stroke.

blake, if you would like to start a thread for this discussion just go ahead and cut/paste the last couple posts from this thread

oh yeah, btw....

i will be making another conribution to this forum very soon in the next few weeks or so in the form of an intake manifold test.

i will be testing 3or4 intake manifolds back to back on a dynojet on my stock internal h22 and then again down the road on my fully built motor.

i will be using the same 68mm tb on each manifold and the manifolds will all be bored to a min of 68mm as well.

the test subjects will include the skunk, euro r and modified factory manifolds and hopefully i will be able to start the test session w/ a base run of my current setup w/ the stock un-modified manifold im currently running. i could just use the dynograph i already have but since this will be on a different day most likely w/ higher temps i would rather do a base run w/ my current setup to get an accurate starting point

i know a similar test has already been done, but i am the type of person who needs to see it for myself to understand things completely. also im curious as to how each manifold will perform once the motor is built as well. im pretty sure the euro r will be the winner for now, but im wondering if a modified/ported stock manifold will prove to be the best option for a fully built race motor?

the testing will be done at tempest racing here in md and we will obviously be re-tunning for each manifold to extract the most power out of each one.

i will post the results in the allmotor forum, but i will be sure to post a link here in the prelude section for you guys well

oh yeah, if anyone happens to have a complete stock exhaust manifold and would be willing to ship it to me i will also test it back to back against my custom b series/h series hybrid manifold i have made. it seems to be making great power and im curious just how much it has picked up over the stock manifold. the top half is a stock h22 manifold. i removed the flange from the primary merge and addded an aftermarket b series downpipe which believe it or not is much larger than the stock h series piping. then i added a 2.5"to3" step up to the merge collector and ended it w/ a 3" turndown.

its by no means a top quality piece, but it is obviously making alot of power over stock and is VERY simple to make yourself if you happen to have any aftermarket b series headers laying around. it also works very well for h2b ground clearence

i have tested my old hytech back to back against stock and gained 18whp (dynojet), now i would like to see what this custom piece i made myself will do against stock. i know it wouldnt fly for a built motor, but i have a feeling it would be all you need for a stock motor