I know this is a honda forum and everything, but there is more information and support for racers here than anywhere else. (period)

If you aren't familiar with turbostreet rules, check nopi's website.


Why do you think nopi or nhra thinks a awd car with a transfer case (ie:dsm) is a disadvantage and needs a 100 pound advantage over the only subaru car that is trying to compete.

Transfer case cars minimum weight 2900
Non-transfer case cars minimum weight 3000

How many people have gone fast in a subaru?

ESX did it with an auto, 26 engines later, 76mm turbo and 150 shot of nitrous = 9.01@151 best time
DSM ? awd motorsports went 9.8 this year with current rules, Mike Richan sp? with the old EVO went 8.9 @ 158 last year under weight on a 70mm turbo...I can't think of anyone else right now.

Obviously My car is not competitive and the best we expect to get out of the car is a 9.5 @ 151....

This is a competive time, and Brian Ballard has proven you can win with the hole shot win back to back......But I can't drive that good....so thats not an option for me.

I just want to be competitive and i thought nhra wanted turbostreet to be a competitve class......or do they?


Anyways, just wanted to see what everyone thinks.


By the way if matt keller sees this congrats on the hard work on the s2000!!!


-Mark Remick

Fastech Motorsports

 

I'm gonna have to agree with you on this one. Definitly wouldnt argue with that rule revision to keep the field closer unless there is another non-t-case car that the rule was designed for.

 

I agree with you.

Evo's have transfer cases correct? Are there any other 4 cylinder AWD cars that could be competitive?

 

I think the reality is that it's not going to make a big difference in ET and isn't worth making a big deal about. Seems like there are other cars that are way more handicapped than the AWD cars to me.

How much quicker do you think the car would be 100lbs lighter?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


How much quicker do you think the car would be 100lbs lighter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm banking on the general rule that says 100lbs is worth a tenth of a second.

FastechWrx; how much seat time do you have ?

Cutting a good light takes practice. But even with practice some people never get real good. There is a feel that not everybody has.

 

I say that's a reasonable guess. Now the question, is 1/10 going to make or break that car being competitive?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I say that's a reasonable guess. Now the question, is 1/10 going to make or break that car being competitive?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well said. Reaction, Practice, Consistancy and knowing your car inside and out will make it a well competitve combination.

 

I'm not saying I am a bad driver, just when Brian won with two hole shot victories, that's amazing.

I have cut many .100 - .200 lights. Most are in the .200 range. I don't think that is bad, I definitely don't expect to cut a .000 light but i think if it came down to it i could cut .100 lights pretty consistently.

100 pounds would cut a tenth off, maybe two. This is an awd car, so you never know how much weight will effect the 60'. I remember a couple of years back i took 200 pounds out of this car when we ran powerstreet and we picked up 7mph.

Because of the hundred pounds we had to put the whole interior back in the car, and some factory safety items that had some weight to them...

But

For the life of me why does it matter if an awd car has or does not have a transfer case. If you have an awd dsm.....buy the upgraded transfer case driveshaft shop sells....and be done with it. At this level the car seams to be an endless black hole that constantly needs feeding to keep up with everyone else. We might as well be running a pro class, its costing to so much to compete. It almost takes the fun out of racing.

Not to mention if the car is 100 pounds lighter, the amount of stress is relieved from the drivetrain when making the initial forward motion on the launch. Will this save drivetrain parts...sure it will to some degree........

When you are racing against front wheel drive cars cutting 1.65 60' you need everything you can get.......The question then becomes...."Why run an AWD car when I can have a RWD or FWD car that is 500-300 lbs lighter"

-Mark Remick
-Sorry just posted from the shop and had the wrong account pulled up...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think the reality is that it's not going to make a big difference in ET and isn't worth making a big deal about. Seems like there are other cars that are way more handicapped than the AWD cars to me.

How much quicker do you think the car would be 100lbs lighter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

who is handicapped more?

-clutchmasters have been 9.4X @ stupid mph
-Felix has been 9.35@ stupid mph ONCE all other passes were 9.4X
-240sx has been 9.4X@ 145-146
-tempest has been 9.5 last season don't know this season.....
-ballard probably has the largest penalties, but he is still in 1st

Looks like everyone is on par

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1992Si &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'm banking on the general rule that says 100lbs is worth a tenth of a second.

FastechWrx; how much seat time do you have ?

Cutting a good light takes practice. But even with practice some people never get real good. There is a feel that not everybody has.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have been racing this car for 4 years now with nopi.......

 

FWIW i added 80lbs to my coupe last year and it went with in a tenth and with in 1mph with out the weight.


i think the rule is kind of retarded but i dont see it making much of a difference. who knows though, ive never owned an awd car

 

You're just looking at the ET's, not how hard they're working to get there with the handicaps. Norris and gang have busted *** to make the car competitive with the restrictions they've been given, as has Ballard i can assure you.

An AWD car can be made to 60' much better than a FWD car, given the rules, surely you can't argue that, right? As far as i can tell that's where the weight comes in on the AWD cars. Remember, the goal is to keep things competitive, and it looks like the quick cars of different makes are within a couple tenths, that's pretty good in my eyes.

FWIW, Ali's car could have run 8's, everybody knows that, 98% of the time they were running it they weren't pushing for 8's because they didn't want a bunch of rules against them. Yeah, they went through a lot of trannies and motors, but that's part of learning the car and motor.

Like i said, i don't think it will make much of a difference either way, the 100lbs. I agree it'll be slightly easier on drivetrain parts, and i think you might find a tenth if you're lucky. You're not going to drop 2 tenths with a 100lb loss.

 

If ali's car was that fast wouldn't you think it would run more low 9 second passes. I was told that they went fast enough to win and thats it......

I know everyone is trying hard to go fast with the restrictions placed....thats is what competition is about.....


I just don't understand the Rule.

Is it in place because of ali?

Also the car has been 9.91@147 this year.......1.65 60'

 

Unfortunately, i'm sure Ali's car plays a big part in the rule. He was the Subaru that was going fast, they always build the rules around the faster guys.

Do you feel that 147mph and 1.65 60' is all your car has in it, or do you think there's more in it with more tuning, track time, and/or parts? I know nothing of your car, that's why i'm asking.

I guess what i'm getting at is that the fastest guys have worked really hard and have poured tons of time and money into their cars to stay on top, have you done the same?

You said you've been racing this car for 4 years, how much has the performance progressed in those 4 years?

Please don't take any of this as negative, i'm just asking questions.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unfortunately, i'm sure Ali's car plays a big part in the rule. He was the Subaru that was going fast, they always build the rules around the faster guys.

Do you feel that 147mph and 1.65 60' is all your car has in it, or do you think there's more in it with more tuning, track time, and/or parts? I know nothing of your car, that's why i'm asking.

I guess what i'm getting at is that the fastest guys have worked really hard and have poured tons of time and money into their cars to stay on top, have you done the same?

You said you've been racing this car for 4 years, how much has the performance progressed in those 4 years?

Please don't take any of this as negative, i'm just asking questions. </TD></TR></TABLE>


These are all valid questions....

First year we raced power street first pass in the car was 12.6 best et after three races was 11.9 @124

second year we raced power street beginning of the season we ran 10.9 and towards the end of the season we ran 10.4's at 135 we won powerstreet that year.

third year we raced turbostreet. beginning of the season we ran 10.2 @ 139 Towards the end of the season we had run a few 9.8 @149

Forth year is 2008 and we are racing turbostreet again. beginning of the season we ran 10.0 @142 now we are running 9.9 @147

We feel the car will cut 1.5 60' with 9.5 @ 151 - 154

Get this car to launch has been a huge learning curve. We have decided to launch hot rather then trying to hook. Hooking breaks to many parts, and we are unable to launch at full boost as some may think with awd. We are launching on low boost then ramping it up in second.

Since last season we have redone the whole setup and put $20,000 on top of what was done to the car already. I don't know if this is alot of money or not, but it sure feels like it is.

I just don't see a point in the rules.

Nitrous is a 200 lb weight penalty....esx had it.
and they had a 76mm turbo.

With current rules, there is no way that car could compete with current cars running, and they had more money than anyone else racing right now.....

 

I agree, the rules do seem odd, i just don't think it's going to make a big enough difference in your cars performance to make a fuss about.

So obviously you're still learning the changes you've made if you ended last year quicker than you've gone so far this year. Either that or you made some bad changes. lol I say give it some time and get your bugs worked out and get the car running consistent at it's potential, then you have some ground to stand on when asking for rule changes.

 

I have asked at the beginning of the year for rule changes.

There are only two more races for us.....as we will not be attending the west races.

The car is a hundred pounds heavier than last year, and we haven't turned the boost all the way up yet. There are some hurdles we are making, but right now the car is making about the same power as last year, and the weight is making the car slower as you have noted.

 

There are a few rules in the rule book that don't make much sense. This rule and the 100 lb weight penalty for removeable radiator support are 2 of them. Unfortunately the rules were written around ALIs care, which s not really fair as his car was an auto and hasn't been out but 1 race in the past 1.5 seasons. I wouldn't expect a change, especially without Glenn pushing to get a change made. Sorry dude. Keep making changes and you'll get that car flying soon enough. You should be able to see mid to high 1.4 60s with the car.

 

@FastechWrx: Sorry for the slight OT, but what was your WRXs weight and whp when you competed in power street?

Also, why aren't there more AWDs in Powerstreet? Is the weight disadvantage too much to overcome?

I don't know much about the history of import drag racing, but as someone new to it, it certainly seems from the outside that FWD Hondas dominate the sportsman classes. But whether that is due to some rules handicap, that Hondas are cheaper to run, or that there are simply way more Hondas out there I'm not sure. I would think AWD DSMs would be equally cheap to run and fairly numerous, but you don't see them competing. Hopefully someone can enlighten me on why that is.

J.

 

They hit the AWDs with smaller turbos in Powerstreet and the competitor in Mark took over, he wanted to go faster. Can't fault someone for that.


Modified by XXXRacing at 3:52 PM 6/10/2008

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lumbercis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">@FastechWrx: Sorry for the slight OT, but what was your WRXs weight and whp when you competed in power street?

Also, why aren't there more AWDs in Powerstreet? Is the weight disadvantage too much to overcome?

I don't know much about the history of import drag racing, but as someone new to it, it certainly seems from the outside that FWD Hondas dominate the sportsman classes. But whether that is due to some rules handicap, that Hondas are cheaper to run, or that there are simply way more Hondas out there I'm not sure. I would think AWD DSMs would be equally cheap to run and fairly numerous, but you don't see them competing. Hopefully someone can enlighten me on why that is.

J. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You are indeed right when you say that DSMs should be VERY competitive in power street. The biggest issue is that they are limited to a radial tire. Fast dsms on radials are VERY harsh on driveline parts, mainly the rear axles, because of the large amount of "wheel hop". This usually results in breakage, or having to be so careful when launching the car, that we loose a large amount of time or are inconsistant. If you look at the results from all the races this year, a dsm is usually that fastest car in the power street class, but have issues with consistancy.

I believe I may have found a way around these issues, but my dsm is still sitting in a thousand pieces waiting for my tuner to get some time to put it together.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FastechWrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have asked at the beginning of the year for rule changes.

There are only two more races for us.....as we will not be attending the west races.

The car is a hundred pounds heavier than last year, and we haven't turned the boost all the way up yet. There are some hurdles we are making, but right now the car is making about the same power as last year, and the weight is making the car slower as you have noted.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mark, I completely agree with your comments about the rules. It is stupid that you should be penalized for having a car without a t-case. If they designed this rule because of Ali's car, they should limit the penalty to automatic AWD non t-case cars.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris99SI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Mark, I completely agree with your comments about the rules. It is stupid that you should be penalized for having a car without a t-case. If they designed this rule because of Ali's car, they should limit the penalty to automatic AWD non t-case cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Atleast the general feeling is the rule is stupid.

I personally don't think if ali or julie was racing that subaru if they kept with the rules, that they would be able to run much faster than 9.5

That car with a larger turbo and nitrous was consistently a 9.5-9.3 car, so with current rules there would be a large power difference between a 70mm and a 76mm. On paper it would almost be 200 hp difference.

When I moved to turbostreet, I had a 72mm turbo on my subaru and the car weighted 3050 with me in it. We cut a best time of 10.4 @ 135 on toyo ra-1's. I feel as though i could have gone faster, we only ran that set up two races. The problem in past years was we kept getting ideas and changing the car through the season. This year we have pretty much kept the car the same all season, and built the car exact to the rules.

I guess we will keep plugging away at the car, but i just wish we could pull 100 pounds out of the car to make it a little fair for us.

thanks
Mark

 

Speaking of turbo restrictions and such, for everyone that is turbo limited, why not use nitrous? AFAIK, it's still allowed, but no one does. 68mm turbo with a 150shot will kick the 72mm guys ***...

 

only 2 power adders are allowed in TS and slicks count as 1.