The reason I ask this question is that after I placed several calls to local Honda dealerships, two of the parts guys did not know what Honda was "now" selling as OEM, but one guy said it was aluminum and plastic.

Ok, here is the point about that. I recently asked some questions about a Rad for a 94 Accord. I saw many sources for Rads, but they are all plastic and aluminum and they are all coming out of the orient. One guy could not believe that I wanted an opinion on a $14.95 Rad on eBay (but that shipping was $40 and that was the scam part of it). Ok, so I start looking elsewhere and the only thing I am finding is these plastic-tank-aluminum-cored Rads with prices all across the board. Now if this is all there is and there are no more Brass Copper models from Honda, than I am certainly not paying Hondas ridiculously high price for a plastic Rad. I might as well find a brand name that fits and pay at least half.

But seriously, I cannot find any Honda parts guy who knows for sure if the brass copper ones are still available. I'm wondering if that one parts guy might have been mistaken. Btw, Honda won't order one in to let me see which it is.


Modified by diyer at 3:52 PM 6/8/2008

 

The only one that you will fine from the dealer is the plastic-alum. one's. If you don't want a factory one you can get an all alum. radiator from Napa with a lifetime warranty. You can also get a Koyo that will drop right in thats alot cheaper.

 

I'm glad I posted the question.

I'll check NAPA for a price.

But what about finding the koyo, where will I get the best price on those? I thought Koyo was an all aluminum racing type?

Also, since I have a toyo 4 blade fan/shroud configuration, does Koyo give you that option, or ask if you have a denso or toyo shroud?


Modified by diyer at 7:22 PM 6/8/2008

 

I understand your apprehensiveness about a radiator with plastic tanks.

I tend to not mess with something that is a good design, my pistol is predominantly plastic, intake manifolds for the 350 HP LS1 and 400 HP LS2 are plastic. Technology has come a long way.

My point here is that I can not for the life of me understand why someone would want to "step down" to a copper/brass radiator, they are less efficient than aluminum, heavier, and more prone to corrosion.

In my opinion, I'd go with OEM or an all-aluminum model and any radiator built for racing would be awesome on a street car.

 

it would not suprise me if honda switched over to a plastic design during the 94-97 model year or later and retrofitted the parts

 

Copper brass more corrosive, I doubt it - ever hear of white rust. Aluminum will deteriorate very quickly when the coolant has lost its protective ability. Its a fact that the copper brass radiators are still the preferred rad for trucks, buses, special vehicles. Aluminum only outsells copper brass in the consumer retail car market. Also copper brass is on the comeback with the new laser welding and brazing methods.

Heavier, yes for now, but that might soon change. Aluminum gained because it was lighter and a cheaper metal to produce - nothing more. It has never conducted heat better then copper. Ask any chef about that. Copper is #1.

See attached info:

Automotive Radiators

The recent history of the passenger car radiator is well known - the conventional wisdom is that aluminum has largely taken this market. The trend started in Western Europe, has moved forward in the United States and has more recently taken hold with Japanese automobile producers. Aluminum penetration in original equipment in terms of tons of material consumed in 1995 is shown in Table 1, below. It is as high as 77% in Western Europe and is at 29% in Japan. Worldwide, on the basis of weight, 52% of radiator material consumed for original equipment is aluminum. But aluminum penetration in the large aftermarket is only about 10% as shown in Table 2. Overall, as shown on Table 3, contrary to the conventional wisdom, the copper/brass radiator still accounts for two-thirds of the total tonnage of radiator material consumed worldwide. Also shown here is the changing market share for the two material systems in the 1991 to 1995 period. Copper/brass radiator tonnage had decreased by 4.6% in five years and aluminum has captured all of the growth in consumption of radiator material as the worldwide auto industry grew.

Table 1. Aluminum Radiator Penetration, Original Equipment - 1995 000 Tonnes
Region Cu/Br Al Al%
Western Europe 11.4 39.4 77
North America 23.2 31.9 58
Japan 24.9 10.2 29
Rest of World 31.3 16.9 35
Total 90.8 98.4 52
Table 2. Aluminum Radiator Penetration After Market - 1995 000 Tonnes
Region Cu/Br Al Al%
Western Europe 18.9 3.8 17
North America 35.1 0.3 1
Japan 10.9 1.1 9
Rest of World 27.5 4.8 15
Total 92.3 10 10
Table 3. Radiator Market Share, 1991-1995 Thousands of Tonnes & (%), Worldwide Material 1991 1993 1994 1995
Cu/Br 215.2 (73) 213.0 (71) 209.6 (69) 205.1 (66)
Al 81.2 (27) 87.7 (29) 102.6 (31) 107.0 (34)

We must conclude though that copper/brass radiators will be a significant factor in scrap in all sectors of the world for some time to come.The copper/brass radiator, despite the spectacular success of the aluminum system, still consumes about two thirds of the total tonnage of radiator material due to its continued but decreasing use in new automobiles and its advantages and dominance in the aftermarket and in trucks, heavy off-road and industrial equipment.

At this meeting, where the audience is clearly representative of and interested in the copper industry, a digression to examine just why the industry lost a large share, possibly 100,000 tons per year, to a competitive material system, is appropriate. Again, the conventional wisdom is that the copper/brass system is too heavy and too expensive compared to aluminum. After all, everyone knows that the density of copper is more than three times that of aluminum and that on the LME or Comex markets, copper has consistently been more expensive than aluminum. Those facts would seem to explain the success of the automotive aluminum radiator. But the real reasons for the success of the aluminum radiator are, first, the strong, 25-year development effort of the aluminum industry and, secondly, the total neglect in that same period on the part of the copper industry for its product. We had 100% of the market and did not believe that situation could be changed.

But the copper/brass radiator was too heavy - not because the laws of physics dictated that it be, but because no effort to improve design to take advantage of superior mechanical properties and thermal conductivity had been expended. More recently, in tests conducted at Penn State University on three generations of the new brazed copper/brass radiator, CuproBraze radiators were shown to be fully competitive with the brazed aluminum. These data are shown in the table below.

Table 4. CuproBraze vs. Brazed Aluminum Radiator Core: Brazed Aluminum CuproBraze I* CuproBraze II* CuproBraze III*
Header Width, mm 432 432 432 395
Tube Length, mm 550 550 485 505
Fin thickness, mm 0.114 0.038 0.038 0.038
Tube Wall Thickness, mm 0.381 0.127 0.127 0.102
Dry Core Weight, kg 1.67 1.9 1.79 1.56
Wet Core Weight, kg 2.04 2.33 2.17 1.89
Coolant Pressure Drop, kPa 4.75 3.31 2.89 4.75
Air Pressure Drop, kPa 0.307 0.216 0.307 0.307
*CuproBraze I - Lower air pressure drop, same size, heavier.
*CuproBraze II - Same air pressure drop, smaller, slightly heavier.
*CuproBraze III - Same air pressure & coolant drop, smaller & lighter.

CuproBrazeI, designed to have the same frontal area as the aluminum radiator, has 30% lower air pressure drop but is slightly heavier. CuproBrazeII has the same air pressure as the brazed aluminum model, but is smaller in size. CuproBrazeIII combines a smaller frontal area and thinner tube walls to achieve distinct advantages in both size and weight. All four of these radiator cores have the same cooling capacity (168,000 BTU/hr) and fin depth. Their weights include fin and tube material only. This work has shown conclusively that a much lighter copper/brass radiator is possible. In addition to replacing the lead solder by a brazed joining system, tube touching design and compact core designs were among a number of innovations that reduced the weight of the copper/brass system.</>

It has only been in the last ten years, long after the aluminum system had its foothold on the market, that any serious thought was given to improving the joining system used in the manufacture of the copper/brass system; after all, the lead-tin solder is heavy, it tended to fail by creep at the tube-to-header joints causing leaks, and it was vulnerable to corrosion on the coolant side. This was known as "blooming" corrosion because of the voluminous lead corrosion product that often resulted in tube blockage. Environmental concerns about lead in the air in manufacturing plants and radiator repair shops also posed problems. And corrosion of the copper fins in industrial environments was another problem that required attention if the system were to be competitive.

The cost issue is nowhere near as large as the difference in copper cathode and aluminum ingot prices would suggest, because radiators are made from strip materials, not from cathode or ingot. The aluminum tube strip is a complex composite of two or three layers; these provide structural support, a brazing alloy layer and often a sacrificial inner layer to control coolant-side corrosion. The brass tube and copper fin materials are simple homogenous materials.

Consequently, the copper/brass radiator strip materials have actually been less costly than the aluminum strip, as shown below.

That left the joining and corrosion issues. In 1988, the International Copper Association launched an effort to develop an entirely new copper/brass radiator system that substituted brazed construction for the lead-tin solder. An electrophoretic coating system for external corrosion protection familiar to the auto industry, cost effective, and having negligible impact on heat transfer, was developed and proved effective in on-the-road tests. A laser welding system for production of brass tube was developed. The brazing alloy is a self-fluxing Cu-Ni-Sn-P alloy not relying on silver or other expensive materials. Brazing is done on this copper system using no flux and at the same temperature the aluminum radiator is brazed allowing brazing furnaces now used for aluminum radiators to be used for the new brazed copper/brass radiator. New anneal-resistant brass and copper fin alloys were developed.

Original equipment and aftermarket radiator manufacturers all over the world are involved in testing this new system. At long last the copper industry is addressing this market with the hard work and creative thinking required for success. Assuming the industry has the patience and capacity for follow through required, the picture some ten years from now could be that the new copper/brass system has recaptured some of the lost market share and has established an equilibrium with its aluminum competition in original equipment automobile radiators. This would further assure that copper/brass radiators would continue to be a component of the scrap stream. But this new radiator, showing up in the scrap stream possibly 15 or so years from now, will be a different product. It will be lead-free and will thus be a more versatile scrap product not limited to use in copper alloy castings as is the present copper/brass radiator.

Copyright © 2008 Copper Development Association Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Affiliated with the International Copper Association, LTD.
Copper Connects LifeTM

 

My '91 Accord had plastic tanks on it's ORIGINAL radiator.

Same with the '92, original radiator in it as well.

 

No, if the aluminum radiator is grounded to the frame, is equipped with the sacrificial anode, and filled with the proper mix of water/coolant, you will NEVER have a problem with it.

Ok, on to heat transfer, I don't care what a CHEF has to say, I care what RACERS have to say, everyone I've ever talked to that switched from copper/brass to aluminum of comparable size say that their coolant temperatures were a lot lower after the switch and that's all I care about.

I'm not cooking spaghetti with my engine, I'm doing exactly the opposite, trying to get rid of as much heat as possible. Maybe chefs don't use aluminum because of that whole shavings of metal in food thing.

 

[QUOTE=The_Caged_Bird] "No, if the aluminum radiator is grounded to the frame, is equipped with the sacrificial anode, and filled with the proper mix of water/coolant, you will NEVER have a problem with it ..."


CORROSION

Don't change that coolant when the anti-corrosive properties are depleted and see what starts to happen with your aluminum. Aluminum will corrode faster and worse than copper - it actually rots apart. Brass was the problem not the copper. Brass goes well with copper in regards to galling and it resisted corrosion better than copper, but the problem with brass was the weight and thermally it was not as good as aluminum. But a copper-aluminum combo would be even better than all aluminum. Don't believe me check out MODINE - their engineers know alot more than you or me about this subject and I dont care who told you what - whatever you were told is only a half truth. Modine is the definitive world standard for quality radiators. They know their S___. And the application does not matter whether it is cooking or racing. Coppers thermal properties are the best hands down, other than a special mix of alloys, which no one has produced in the form of radiators yet.

[QUOTE=The_Caged_Bird]... "Ok, on to heat transfer, I don't care what a CHEF has to say, I care what RACERS have to say, everyone I've ever talked to that switched from copper/brass to aluminum of comparable size say that their coolant temperatures were a lot lower after the switch and that's all I care about. I'm not cooking spaghetti with my engine, I'm doing exactly the opposite, trying to get rid of as much heat as possible. Maybe chefs don't use aluminum because of that whole shavings of metal in food thing."

THERMAL PROPERTIES

Your response shows your ignorance not only about thermal properties of metals, but also cooking subjects. First, as for shavings, French chefs have known about copper's ability to cool or heat faster than other metals long before there was any info about aluminum shavings. And shavings, what are you talking about!? My god shavings of any metal would be harmful. I think you are refering to the suspected link between aluminum and Alzheimers disease. You just don't cook acidic foods in aluminum or copper - period - Iron is the better choice.

But no, your wrong althogether, PHYSICS does not lie. Copper has far better thermal heat transfer than aluminum. It does not matter what the application is. If those copper rads were not cooling like the racers expected then it was the brass that was the issue NOT the copper. Copper can switch temps much faster than aluminum, whether it be to increase the heat (withdrawing ability), or to decrease the heat and cool (shed the heat).

I'm not saying aluminum does not work, only that hands down copper's thermal properties [its ability to switch temps from high to low] is superior to aluminum.


Btw, I agree that an aluminum-plastic or an all-aluminum rad is better than a brass-copper rad, but not better than an all copper or copper-aluminum. Never seen an all copper one yet, but Modine has the copper-aluminum rads ()only for commercial vehicles, though)

And interestingly, Spectra, aka SPI, supposedly has a copper-core-plastic-tank rad.


Modified by diyer at 3:25 PM 6/15/2008

 

only if there are no plastic parts on it.....