I am in the process of rebuilding my B17a, this is my first rebuild so please help me. I am sticking to Honda OEM parts wherever I can. I have already purchased:

oem p30 pistons
oem piston rings
oem ITR oil pump
complete oem bottom end gasket kit
complete oem top end gasket kit
oem timing belt
oem water pump
oem tensioner
oem CTR n1 crank pulley
oem ITR flywheel
Password jdm magnetic oil drain plugs
waiting on oem b17 rod and main bearings.


I am considering adding CTR cams and valvetrain while everything is apart.

MY QUESTIONS are the following:

1. What exactly do I need other than cams, valve springs and retainers to run CTR cams?

2.Do I need Adjustable cam gears with the CTR's?

3. Do I have to tune my engine/ECU if I decide to run CTR cams?

4. Do I have to run bigger injectors? a FPR? ITR intake manifold or exhaust manifold ? in order for ctr cams to work properly?

5. what kind of poer gains (estimated) should I expect from the above, with ctr cams? and without ctr cams?

6.Any thing else I should consider changing or doing while my engine is apart?

THANKS IN ADVANCE GUYS!!!




Modified by phantomh22 at 9:15 PM 5/26/2008

 

1. you can get away with using your stock springs and retainers, but not if you plan on driving it for like 80k miles.

2. yes. cam gears will allow you to tune and adjust your cam timing accordingly, resulting in better power and better reliability.

3. always tune your motor. period.

4. fuel pressure regulator is a must, but you should be able to get away with using your stock injectors. any other bolt on mod will always helpful when using new cams. you have to think of every mod in conjunction with the others for the best gains. if you use ctr cams and stock components, you are robbing yourself of power and not getting the full potential of the type-r cams. so, in short, yes. you want good, reputable bolt-ons.

5. its hard to say what your gains would be because im not a dyno, or a tuner for that matter. ive noticed an average of 6-10 whp gains from using ctr/type r cams with proper tuning and cam gears. your probably looking at a little more than that. this gain will obviously go up when you use other bolt on parts, i.e. header, intake manifold, cam gears, tuning, etc.

6. as far as anything else i could tell you....dont ever, ever, ever half *** anything. always use quality parts and stick to honda's EXACT specs when putting the motor together. tune your motor right after you start it up and make sure, again, DONT TAKE ANY SHORT CUTS.

that is all. im me if you have any other questions.

 

All of the above are true... good luck with the build

 

Thanks alot man! I'm actually ordering the ctr cams from hmotors and getting my valvesprings from inlinefour. I'm going with skunk2 cam gears. Can I use my stock retainers with this setup? I can't seem to find type r retainers for sale. Do you know anyone that carries these?

 

they seem to be a little hard to come by these days.look around here in the for sale thread. there are lots of guys who buy aftermarket springs/retainers for their type-r motors.

although you should be ok with just the type-r valve springs and stock retainers.

 

I am running ITR Springs with CTR cams.
GSR and ITR retainers are the same part number.
You many need to get the retainers from a Honda or Acura dealer.
You also may want to rethink the CTR N1 Crank Pulley. Get your GSR pulley machined down to just the Alternator belt. You still will get the benifit of the damper in the pulley.
Why do you need a FPR with a tuneable ECU?

 

as far as i know, the fuel pressure isnt tuneable with the ecu. its all done by hand.

 

I know a FPR is a manual adjustment. What I was refering to is that you can change the fuel injector duty cycle in the programming, Crome, Hondata, something else. Why change the fuel pressure? One less thing to worry about and spend money on.

 

Inlinefour.com is a rip off, check here with our sponsors, most give honda-tech discounts.

 

because your fuel pressure has to be adjusted to the right psi in order for you to get the correct fuel amount from the injector.

 

I'm tuning on hondata s100. Will I be good without a FP regulator?


Modified by phantomh22 at 8:23 PM 5/28/2008

 

I disagree with a few of the suggestions made in this thread. I would not run stock b17a valvetrain with ctr/itr cams. I does work ok, but you are asking for trouble with soft springs. At least run the matching springs that honda designed for that cam. Also a fuel pressure regulator is useless, stick with the stock regulator and injectors for your intended purposes. No need to change fuel pressure. Good tuning is essential to getting the most out of the setup.

 

What's the mileage on your b17a ! Those engine are starting to be old. Before you start make sure you start by checking the connecting rods and crank end play to make sure it does'nt exeed service limit ! I had oil pressure problem cause of that with my B17a in my old integra cause of that !

As for the camshaft they will certainly work with your stock spring but you wont get a good valve timing response if you dont use CTR or ITR spring and retainer !


GL with your project !

 

ok, so let me ask you this, why is it when you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and you take your car to get tuned, they actually dial in the best fuel pressure for your set-up?

do you see ANY all motor set-ups with over 200 whp WITHOUT adjustable fpr's? what about turbo? why is there any use for an adjustable fuel pressure regulator on a turbo motor? what makes these any different? try talking to a tuner before you post.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by anothersickhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
do you see ANY all motor set-ups with over 200 whp WITHOUT adjustable fpr's? </TD></TR></TABLE>

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

This one?

I'll let Todd chime in if he's around to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by anothersickhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok, so let me ask you this, why is it when you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and you take your car to get tuned, they actually dial in the best fuel pressure for your set-up?

do you see ANY all motor set-ups with over 200 whp WITHOUT adjustable fpr's? what about turbo? why is there any use for an adjustable fuel pressure regulator on a turbo motor? what makes these any different? try talking to a tuner before you post.</TD></TR></TABLE>


I am not even sure where to start with this. I guess I have been doing this wrong for years. Putting together both all motor and turbo cars using the stock regulator on almost every one. My own car makes 210 whp and has the stock regulator. Countless 300-500 hp turbo cars that have stock rail and regulators?! Holy crap no way! Do you know how they work, or what pressures different injector companies recommend. What has worked best in your experience?

I'm the dyno working on and tuning cars about every other day where I work, I look forward to hearing your response so that I can understand fuel systems better and maybe start doing things the right way. Thanks.

 

just call shaun at church automotive and talk to him. ive been over this with him countless times.

40 bucks for an fpr doesnt sound like to much of a set back.

im not saying you can't make power without one, im just saying if you want the best driveability and consistancy with your motor, get an fpr and have your tuner dial it in. i said before that i am no tuner and haven't tuned a car on my own. neither am i saying that any of you are wrong, but if you want the BEST results out of your car and tune, get an fpr.

and to the previous post, i sense a bit of sarcasm. i know how fuel systems work. im not an idiot. that is why i dont understand why you would use stock fuel pressure, ,which is what, 45psi, on any of those motors. just because you make good power doesnt mean they are running the best that they could be. that is all.

 

Noob? WTF?

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in about this whole 'adjustable fuel pressure regulator thing'...

I'm not sure what kind of programming you are in to or if you use stand-alones or piggybacks but I will say this.

You cannot properly tune a honda without an adj. fpr. If you are reading your lambda wide-band information correctly, you surely will have noticed by now during your fuel tuning process that leaning out rpm points usually will not have the desired affect on torque. Sometimes depending on the application you can get it better, but by and large the most effective way to tune these cars is to run a WOT pull before any fuel tuning is done, establish at which rpm point fuel is the richest (this will be the highest point on a typical wide-band 02 sensor printout), and lower fuel pressure by hand until that maximum point is at or near 13.5, and fuel tune everything up (meaning the only thing your doing at that point is richening all the other low points up to meet 13.5). Basically, the best way to do it is to only add fuel to the fuel map, not try taking it away. This is done by lowering fuel pressure.

That is the right way to do it. Sure, you can use a factory fpr and go up and down with the fuel tuning all you want, maybe even get pretty good results.

But I'll bet the farm that doing it this way will give you the best fuel tune on these cars every single time. Get the most out of your set-up and take it to a tuner that insists on an adjustable fpr.

It's the right way to do it.


Modified by gospeedracer182 at 1:14 AM 5/30/2008

 

a? wtf?

 

Oh, and running any kind of turbo honda, especially one with 300-500 horsepower without a rising rate fuel pressure regulator is just plain retarded.

 

Well that settles it, I'm retarded. to me and my useless advice and experiences.

 

well i guess we'll consider that settled.

 

I think gospeedracer182 is giving his opinion on one way to tune a car using an adjustable fpr. I'm sure it's ONE way of tuning but I'm not so sure it's absolutely the best way (or only way as he stated).

In my experience, adjustable fpr's were a cheap way used to get around purchasing a proper tuning/engine management system. It's a way to make small/stock fuel injectors flow more fuel than normal by increasing the pressure so when the injector opened, more fuel would "rush" out. The problem is you end up getting more fuel everywhere through your rpm range including idle, and not just where you need it. This tends to cause poor idle and a loss in power through parts of the rpm range from being to rich. The positive side is that you can get away with running smaller injectors than you need, to support higher power levels than you normally could. This is still hard on the injectors to an extent and possibly the fuel pump depending on what you have and how much higher the pressure is. The last benefit is from a slightly better fuel spray pattern.

Normally if you run engine tuning like Hondata, you do not need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. This is because the ecu can add and subtract fuel where you need it by adjusting the amount of time the injector stays open. gospeedracer182 feels that and adjustable fpr with engine management is the best way to tune a car but every tuner is different with different experience. Go with what your tuner feels comfortable with.

For the record I do not use an FPR and am around the magical 200 whp mark.

 

so what about using larger injectors with the same pressure, (45psi?)? honestly, i think of this as a water hose. you have the same pressure regardless, but then you throw on a larger nozzle with more flow capability and the water just comes out pouring, rather than squirting, like an injector should. you need more pressure for the nozzle to flow correctly, imo.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by anothersickhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> you need more pressure for the nozzle to flow correctly, imo. </TD></TR></TABLE>

http://www.hondata.com/dynocivicsi.html

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondata &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"># We also installed RC 440cc injectors, re-calibrated the fuel trim and proved that the bigger injectors gave exactly the same output as the standard injectors with no loss in drivability. </TD></TR></TABLE>

When you have good injectors with good response rates and have a system like hondata, you can get them to perform as described above.

The real question here is what would be the preferred method amongst top tuners. Which is more time efficient (This becomes beneficial to the tuner AND the customer)? I don't think the answer is so cut and dry that EVERY setup requires/benefits from an FPR - even so, FPRs are not created equally.