I'm reading my SportsCar mag, and in the Fastrack News section, it says that "Effective 1/1/2003, change 17.3 to read "tires up to and including a width of 245."" Is this just for STX or for STS as well? Either way, STX just tipped way in favor of the WRX. WTF, it's like whatever the Scoobie drivers wish, the SEB grants. This is getting ridiculous. What next, limited turbo mods? Ugh. Sorry if you guys mentioned this before. I did a search and found nothing.

 

The 245 tire width is being floated for member comment. It's not a rule for sure yet.

More interesting to us Honda guys is the other ST proposal out for comment. If STX becomes a National class, all AWD and Turbo cars move to STX, leaving STS for 2WD, normally aspirated cars.

Here's the quote:

"SOLO II STREET TOURING CLASSES
The SEB is submitting for member comment the following rule change proposal for the Street Touring category:
ITEM 24) Effective 1/1/2003, change 17.3 to read "Tires up to and including a width of 245."
The SEB has reviewed and is presenting for member feedback the STAC's current statement of vision for this category, which is as follows: If STX reaches National status, the vehicle eligibility for STS would be restricted to permit only 2WD normally-aspirated vehicles, and all others (AWD, turbos) would go into STX. The STAC believes that models such as the Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS would remain viable cars for STX."

 

Thanks for the reply. I don't understand what a change in tire width has anything to do with moving the AWD and turbo cars to STX. It mebbe good for you, but doesn't make things any better for me and my Prelude Type SH. At least it'll get rid of those pesky 2.5RS for you guys. hehe

 

Im still more nervous about a well prepped 4th gen Civic Si or Neon ACR than I am about the 2.5RS's on a Solo2 course.

 

The 245 width tire rule was made for the Mustangs and other 5.1L cars with huge wide rear tires.

 

Yeah, but it only benefits cars like the AWD cars and the E30 M3 and such. It screws FWD car owners. Let's face it, a cambird/mustang won't be competitive on street tires anyways unless you go to 275 size. So this rule that was written for them impacts the class more than you'll think.

I'm urging everyone to send on their comments on the 245 in STX rule, because it will turn the class into a RWD/AWD class.

mailto: seb@scca.org

 

Fitting 245s all around on a WRX is easier said than done. The front, it's not such a big deal, but as for the rears... there's really very little clearance even with a 225. I think even with aftermarket wheels and threaded body coilovers, you'd still get some heavy rubbing with the rear suspension layout. My 225s on stock wheels have VERY little clearance between the strut and tire, and I don't think you'd save an appreciable amount there even with aftermarket suspension.

BTW, ever wondered what a well-prepped Celica GT would do in STS? or a GT-S with a Quaife in STX? I could've sworn I've seen dyno charts on a GT-S showing 176whp with just an intake. With a diff to put that down, the already sweet brakes those cars have and ~2500 pound weight, they could do some serious damage.


[Modified by WRXRacer111, 8:20 PM 7/15/2002]

 

One of the ST advisory committee members posted a clarification on the ST mailing list. The 245 width proposal will only apply to STX. STS will still have the current 225 width limit.

AS CivicSiRacer pointed out, the proposal is mainly to accommodate cars under the displacement limit that comes with stock tires >225mm.

 

Well, maybe the WRXs are equally screwed as well by the 245 rule???

As far as the Celica GTS, they are too peaky of an engine to do a lot of damage IMO (even moreso than a vtec motor). You catch that car off cam and it doesn't go anywhere. Plus, they have the strut suspension on a FWD car, which doesn't help their efforts. The GT may be the better car of the two, but the power to weight isn't as favorable. I think a GT would be a good STS car, if anything.

A Type R makes more low end torque, has better a suspension setup, a higher redline and shorter gearing, and really doesn't weigh any more than a GTS. And brakes are open in STX, so that's a moot point. That's my pick at least

 

Eh, I think a lot of cars could get screwed by a Cooper S with enough money in it. Might not have power like the Type R or WRX, but it's got the whole momentum thing going for it.

Now if someone could put 245s on a Cooper... I think that'd be a disaster waiting to happen.

 

245s will fit on a prelude...

 

A couple thoughts...

A 245 width tire on a FWD car like an integra wont do chit. Aside from trying to fit one under the fenders - if you managed that then you'd have a b!tch of a time trying to warm those tires up, especially the rears. Bigger tire is not always better... More weight as well.

A celica GT-S in STX, you'd have the ability to change the VVTL-i crossover point, no? That would make it a whole different ballgame. But...

A cooper S with a quaife diff would really knock the rest of the class for a loop, and make for some very diverse competition.

 

Well, ludes haven't proven competitive in STS/STS yet due to that whole weight issue, so that doesn't bother me that much.

And the Cooper S isn't ripping up DS, so I don't know how well one would do in STX. If the 235 rule is kept, then all cars are on equal footing, hence keeping the class level.

And someone makes a x-over device for the GTS now?

 

Not that i know of, but i dont keep up with celica stuff much. Maybe there is? I was just saying.. bump it down to 5,000 rpm so you can stay on the big cam the whole time, with a limited slip, and you have a good car on your hands. STX is shaping up to be a very diverse group.

 

(I assume you meant 225)

The whole purpose of the 245 rule is to keep the cars on equal footing. Why tease the 5.0 litre cars by allowing them into the class but not even letting them run tires that the car came with stock? It doesnt matter if you dont think they will be competitive, and should therefore be disregarded entirely.

As for the subaru hatin', like chris already said, it is extremely difficult to get 245 tires on a wrx.

just becuase 245 tires are legal for the class doesnt mean you have to run them

Evan
-running 225s next year

 

It will be a cold day in hell when we have a VVTL-i controller (and only slightly warmer when we see an i-VTEC controller). The only option right now are stand alone ECU's and the need for serious tuning. There wouldn't be huge gains by lowering the crossover, if anything, it would be to smooth things up.

If I were to build a GT vs. GTS for anything, I probably would go with the GT, that includes STS, STX and DSP. Much fatter powerband, where it matters. On an open course the GTS can be pretty good, but if it is just momentum, then who cares, a lighter GT can maintain momentum just as well.

Look at the Ft. Myers Tour results. On Sunday in the dry my GTS was just as fast as the WRX and Type R, and we know we left some time out there.

Then, look at the GS results. Rick Cone absolutely destroyed all of DS. I do think the Celicas could be decent cars in STS/X, but neither would be an overdog. When you stiffen the springs of the Celica, it turns into a "normal" front drive car. It starts to push, because you lose the toe changes in the rear that make it so twitchy to begin with.

I don't see a Type R ever winning STX if an equally prepared BMW is out to play (the tire rules do hurt the heavier BMW's though). Take the STS national champion Civic, put a LSD in it, and send it out in STX. It will *still* beat a type R. The street touring catagories have a nice leveling factor. Street tires. If you cant getthe traction, then having more power does you little good. Light weight will win the day.

Scott
'00 Celica GTS DS
'73 Celica ST SM/EM (It's alive!)
'02 Tundra (tow vehicle to be)
'91 Pontiac Sunbird (hey, nobody's perfect)

 

Its not the car. Its the stickers and the superior wing! And the carbon fiber trim and the...

 

Now that's debatable. Any power course and the 89-91 Si will get eaten up by the R. Remember, I own a 89-91 Si so I know what they are capable of--great cars in the tight, but easily outpowered in the open. Also, any tight course and the BMW will have weight issues.

However, put 245's on the BMW and those weight issues will start to go away because of the traction factor.

Also, to address a few other posts:

As it now stands, 235's are legal in STX. This was in the previous fastrack.

And, street tires don't need a ton of heat to work well. If I could put 245 street tires on my R--you can certainly bet that I would do so. I can't, so it doesn't matter. However, 225s to 245s are a huge improvement on the heavier cars and this will make a difference on what cars will be on top.

 

I hate getting in fights defending preludes (actually, I love it).. But Vince Bly has Several Regional Victories in STS.. In his 1994 Prelude VTEC..

Meet him at my 2nd autox, he proceded to woop my *** by about 4 seconds

 

yeah, you cant hate him for it either, he's a nice guy.... dammit

 

yeah my good ole buddy Vince you have to also realize that he has been autocrossing prolly longer than I've been born And also has money out the wazoo like Richard West to be able to set the car up perfectly for any class on any budget.

It would be like me (2000 Honda Civic Si in STS) trying to fit 225 wide tires on my car. I'm rubbing already with 205/50x15" Azenis.

 

Which is why his prelude did so well a few years ago. Now people have developed cars just as much as his, and his times at the larger events this year are a few seconds off the pace. A 3000lb fwd car on street tires is not a good combo, and I'm sticking by that

Someone said he had STX aspirations with an E30 M3. Hmmm...maybe that's why the STAC is trying to push the 245 rule through!

 

really? I didnt know that. I thought the only tire rule change was the 245s that goes into affect 1/1/03

I think thats the point, acheive some diversity in the class. Nobody wants a WRX v ITR class. Cars that will benefit from the 245s are cars that would otherwise not be competitive, but wont be overdogs with 245s.
For the record, Im not bias towards my car. In fact I dont think the WRX is going to be the car to have in STX. Its way too heavy (slightly over 3000lbs), complete lack of lowend and boost lag all hurt the car on the autox course

 

left f00t brakE y0!!!

 

the real question in the tire rule change is what tires to use now?

If you want to go 245 what tires are there? BFG-KD? Kuhmo MX?
The BFGs are just too darn expensive and I would hate to see STX turn into a money race. And kuhmo has already said that the MX is less grippy than the BFG