d: i said
d: if the ls had as much hp as a gsr
d: it will have more torque with no vtec
d: but it'll have weaker high end powah
d: thats why theres vtec -_- for low end and high end powah
d: i bet an ls WILL have more torque if it had 170 hp

d: vte increases top end
d: not torque

what the hell does vtec do then? according to this guy you don't gain "torque" with vtec you gain top end? wtf?

d: top end and torwque are different
d: torque = low end power
d: are you gonna have low end power when you're in high rpms?


VTEC INCREASES TORQUE RIGHT?

ACCORDING TO THIS GUY IT DOESN'T. SO IF AN LS HAD 170 HP IT WOULD HAVE MORE TORQUE THAN A GSR RIGHT? SOMEONE TELL ME. CAUSE I THINK THATS BOGUS

 

i believe the vtec is top end aswell. id bet my money a 170hp ls would have more tq. i have a ls b18a1 with a set of hks cams and boltons. iv put my friends gsr down


Modified by stitchy818 at 2:21 AM 5/6/2008

 

You can characterize the breathing efficiency of a normallly aspirated engine by calculating torque/displacement. The standard unit is the amalgamated ft-lb/liter. VTEC is designed to produce uniform torque over a broad RPM range. In stock form, VTEC heads breath better than nonVTEC heads for the B-series. Stock VTEC engines have a better torque/displacement because they breathe better and they have higher compression ratios.

The bottom line is that VTEC engines have a wider "power band" than nonVTEC engines.

 

yea i remember checking out the differences between a gsr head and an ls head...the gsr intake and exhaust ports are bigger
ls has more displacement in the bottom end

 

torque is related to horsepower

"top end" meaning horsepower right?
"low end" is torque?

in physics,
torque = 5252 x horsepower / rotational speed,
(there is a conversion factor of 5252 for imperical units)

depending on where you want to calculate this,

rotational speed can occur at the wheels, or the engine in (rpms)
i am sure they will be different due to the difference in radii.


i concur with dogginator, a wider power band is produced with vtec.
and since torque is related to hp, more hp = more torque.
heres some dynos.

B18b Non-Vtec


B18C1 Vtec



fixed*


Modified by ZE12O at 8:32 PM 5/6/2008

 

poor auto ls.

 

If hp and torque are related and more hp = more torque, explain the 400+ hp hondas with around 200 ft/lb of torque

 

its also in the gearing! itr tranny on ls would be very torquey

 

HP is pretty much irrelevant

http://forums.evans-tuning.com...iming


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZE12O &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">torque = horsepower x rotational speed/5252</TD></TR></TABLE>

the above formula is wrong. this is the correct formula.
Horsepower=(rpm/5252)*torque


bottom line for hondas:
the more torque you make at higher RPMs, the more power you have.





Modified by -DC2- at 6:50 PM 5/6/2008

 

torque simply refers to rotational force, and is used to describe power an lower rpms
horsepower, as im sure most of you know, is defined as work completed over time.

GSR VTEC is a system so the engine can breathe at high rpms, the same reason they put in dual intake runners.

to make power at lower RPMS, you cant have too much air going to the cylinder, if you have too much air, you wont get as much combustion. i know this is true, but i dont know the physics behind it, so if anyone can direct me to a link, that be nice.

anyway. the ls is designed as a more DD, more budget version of the integra. thats why it doesnt have vtec.

also: another way the LS makes its low end torque is by having a slightly bigger displacment, the crank has a longer stroke, longer stroke makes for more power with less revving.

let me repeat myself: the term torque is used to describe power at low end, horsepower is what you want for top end.

 

so an LS has more low end. but its torque doesn't increase that much after that right?

so the GSR has less low end than the LS but as the rpm goes up the GSR has VTEC so that it can "breathe" more thus making more torque in the higher rpms so it can keep on making power. right?

so basically vtec increases torque and it'll still beat an LS with 170 hp. yeah? since the LS wouldn't have vtec therefore, it wouldn't be able to have more air coming in at the higher rpms and getting a more stronger combustion. right?

 

so basically vtec increases torque and it'll still beat an LS with 170 hp. yeah? since the LS wouldn't have vtec therefore, it wouldn't be able to have more air coming in at the higher rpms and getting a more stronger combustion. right?[/QUOTE]

dont bench race them nothing will beat anything all things far nothing is far if they made the same power then there is still diffrent things to compare like drivers tires trannys and such but you are on the right track with what you said about how it works tho

 

I beat a 92-95 Civic HB w/LS off the line in my 1990 Integra w/B16A...He looked like he was running the stock 13" tires but I was surprised he didn't beat me...He had a passenger...But I managed to pull ahead and he was a foot off my back bumper all the way to 4th gear...

 

guys, there's something behind all of this. Let me see if I can clear this up for you as simply as I can...

First, lets imagine that you took the VTEC off of the GSR and just ran it without VTEC for a bit. If you did this, the LS would beat the GSR simply because it does, in fact, make more torque. The reasoning behind the LS making more torque is because it has a longer stroke. This makes a little bit more time for fuel and air to get into the cylinder because it takes longer for the piston to make its cycle. Furthermore, the connecting rod has a bit more leverage on the crank shaft, so it can power over things better in this instance. The reason Honda created a shorter stroke on the GSR is so it can rev higher (due to the VTEC)

Now lets look at torque vs. HP. What's the difference? Well, torque is simply defined as force in a circular motion. Now, power, as in horse power is defined as this force, multiplied by the amount of times it repeats a certain amount of force over an amount of time. We'll use minutes here. So, the engine makes a certain level of torque, which is multiplied by how many times it makes this level of torque in a minute... So if we're looking at two engines that both make, say 170 HP, but one makes 170HP at 8,000 RPM and the other one makes 170HP at 6,000 RPM, the one that makes 170HP at 6000 RPM will actually have to have more torque put forth at 6,000 RPM in order to make that 170HP than the 8,000RPM engine. You see where I'm going with this?

Now, the purpose of VTEC...

The LS engine and the GSR engine are comparable until VTEC crosses over in the GSR's engine (except the LS has a slight, but very slight bit more low-end power due to the larger stroke/displacement). The purpose of VTEC is to open the valves up for a longer duration during each cycle. The reason for this is that the further you rev up the engine, the shorter amount of time fuel and air has to make it into the combustion chamber, as well as the shorter amount of time exhaust has to find its way out... Fuel and air can't come in until all of the exhaust is out, and fuel and air ALSO can only move so fast through the head, especially when there's barely any time for the piston to draw that fuel and air into the chamber. The longer duration allows a comparable amount of fuel and air to get into the combustion chamber at these higher RPM's so that it can make more BOOM! So in essence, it is a continuation of the powerband.

What kind of power does VTEC make? HP or Torque? Well, again, it doesn't really matter where on the powerband it is located, the extra power extracted from the VTEC allows the engine to make more torque per stroke. This torque, multiplied by how many times it can make it in a minute, makes the HP. And that's about it!

 

Non-VTEC head's have very small intake ports for a higher intake velocity. You won't produce the low end torque of a non-vtec with a GSR.

Understanding fundamental physics principals should be a requirement for this forum.

 

This is a lengthy read that goes into horsepower vs. torque, as well as a bit into gearing. It should help you understand this concept a little better.

http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MrViet &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">d: i said
d: if the ls had as much hp as a gsr
d: it will have more torque with no vtec
d: but it'll have weaker high end powah
d: thats why theres vtec -_- for low end and high end powah
d: i bet an ls WILL have more torque if it had 170 hp

d: vte increases top end
d: not torque

what the hell does vtec do then? according to this guy you don't gain "torque" with vtec you gain top end? wtf?

d: top end and torwque are different
d: torque = low end power
d: are you gonna have low end power when you're in high rpms?


VTEC INCREASES TORQUE RIGHT?

ACCORDING TO THIS GUY IT DOESN'T. SO IF AN LS HAD 170 HP IT WOULD HAVE MORE TORQUE THAN A GSR RIGHT? SOMEONE TELL ME. CAUSE I THINK THATS BOGUS

</TD></TR></TABLE>


LOL? I LIKE HOW YOU USE ALL CAPS.

Anyways, the VTEC on the GSR is a DOHC VTEC system. It increases lift and duration on the cam at higher rpms. This in turn puts more air and fuel into the engine which produces more power. Look at the torque rating on the GSR vs LS. See how the GSR makes more HP & Torque. But look at the RPMS at which it makes it, after VTEC engages. Before lift (under 5500rpms give &lt;-- aprox), the GSR will make less power than an LS.

The point the OP's friend was trying to make was that, if an LS had 170hp it would make more Torque than a GSR.

Well he was false when he said an LS makes more torque than a GSR because clearly the GSR makes more torque and hp in plain sight. It does make torque available sooner because of the design but doesn't make power past its early redline around 6700 which makes it obsolete when compared to the GSR.

To make his statements correct

An LS makes torque available sooner than the GSR, and it also does make more torque at low rpms.

The GSR has a shorter stroke; like a smaller engine that shines over the LS only at high RPMS.

The LS would make more Torque than a GSR of the same HP because it is indeed, like a bigger engine, has a longer stroke.

VTEC increases top end power and allows for a better power band by not limiting it to 1 cam profile thus Variable Valve Timing. This means you could make more power, more efficiently, at a lower RPM on the GSR given the same block dimensions.

The GSR is in no way an inferior motor.

 

ok since everyones writing a good paragraph or 2, im gonna sum this up:

LS makes power power lower down

GSR breathes more at higher rpms, allowing it to make more top end.

end of thread.

what kind of statement is "if a ls made 170 hp" anyway? how is it made? im sure you could put some hella cams in an ls, build the bottom to make it rev to 9 grand, and have it put up some power, but then it wouldnt exactly be an LS, now then would it? an ls has 140ish hp. if it makes more, its not an LS as its designed, and thus this argument is just silly and confusing.

 

VTEC doesn't really directly increase torque.


However, it facilitates the increase of torque.

Think about it this way. The B16A is criticized for not having torque.

Think about another NA 1.6L 160-170HP engine that is placed in a LEV vehicle that gets over 31mpg, is useable on the street, and still makes decent power for just tooling around.

It doesn't exist.

VTEC gives you the best of both worlds. You use a small cam down low for good low end, good emissions, good gas mileage, and a docile little street engine. Above 6k, that cam would make no power and fall flat on it's face. BOOORING.

Introduce a larger cam when needed, and the larger cam throws everything out the window except for making power.

If you were to take..say..a 4AGE corolla motor, which is dimensionally comparable to a B16A and made it make 170hp NA, it would be SOOOOOO shitty to drive on the streets. A B16A would feel like an LS1 compared to that engine.

The LS engine makes better low end than a GSR because of a few things.

Increased stroke. The B18A/B is bigger than the B18C by a few CCs. The increased stroke means more leverage for the pistons to put on the crank, which means more torque.

Small cam lobes. Smaller head ports. Restrict airflow just right, and make good low end.

Ignition timing tuned towards making better low end.

If you were to dyno a GSR with VTEC disabled, it would obviously make the same low end, less midrange, and a shitload less top end. It would probably end up with around 20-25hp less making around 145-150 crank hp...which is in the LS's realm.

Since VTEC is not enabled before around 4500RPM at the lowest (GSR), it has no affect on bottom end directly. Like I said before, it just facilitates the conditions for good low end CONSIDERING that the engine makes as much top end as it does with as little displacement as it has.

That is to say normal NA 1.6s dont make 160-170hp, and normal NA 1.8s dont make 170-195hp. Infact, a lot of turbo 1.6es or 1.8s dont even make that much power.

If you had ANY other NA powerplant with fixed cam timing and fixed cam lobe size making that much power, it would be a TOTAL dog during regular driving. They would be smelly, loud, dirty running cars with bad idles, and annoying little habits.

GSRs and Si's aren't TOTAL dogs down low (especially the GSR), they are inside of LEV vehicles, get great gas mileage, idle smoothly and are very driveable in traffic.

If you had an emissions friendly car with a great idle and good low end punch, the top end would suck really bad and you'd probably have to shift at 6k at max. Think cavalier or focus.

The GSR's and Si's top end is very good. They make power almost all the way to redline....and STILL get better gas mileage than "economy only" cars that make 50-60 less hp.

That's the advantage of VTEC. The best of both worlds.

BTW,

LS gas mileage: 25-31 HP: 140
GSR gas mileage: 25-31 HP: 170
ITR gas mileage: 25-30 HP: 195

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMguy88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If hp and torque are related and more hp = more torque, explain the 400+ hp hondas with around 200 ft/lb of torque</TD></TR></TABLE>

Horsepower is measured by how fast you can apply torque...so they're pretty closely related.

Horsepower is an imaginary force that needs torque to exist.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VTEC doesn't really directly increase torque.


However, it facilitates the increase of torque.

Think about it this way. The B16A is criticized for not having torque.

Think about another NA 1.6L 160-170HP engine that is placed in a LEV vehicle that gets over 31mpg, is useable on the street, and still makes decent power for just tooling around.

It doesn't exist.

VTEC gives you the best of both worlds. You use a small cam down low for good low end, good emissions, good gas mileage, and a docile little street engine. Above 6k, that cam would make no power and fall flat on it's face. BOOORING.

Introduce a larger cam when needed, and the larger cam throws everything out the window except for making power.

If you were to take..say..a 4AGE corolla motor, which is dimensionally comparable to a B16A and made it make 170hp NA, it would be SOOOOOO shitty to drive on the streets. A B16A would feel like an LS1 compared to that engine.

The LS engine makes better low end than a GSR because of a few things.

Increased stroke. The B18A/B is bigger than the B18C by a few CCs. The increased stroke means more leverage for the pistons to put on the crank, which means more torque.

Small cam lobes. Smaller head ports. Restrict airflow just right, and make good low end.

Ignition timing tuned towards making better low end.

If you were to dyno a GSR with VTEC disabled, it would obviously make the same low end, less midrange, and a shitload less top end. It would probably end up with around 20-25hp less making around 145-150 crank hp...which is in the LS's realm.

Since VTEC is not enabled before around 4500RPM at the lowest (GSR), it has no affect on bottom end directly. Like I said before, it just facilitates the conditions for good low end CONSIDERING that the engine makes as much top end as it does with as little displacement as it has.

That is to say normal NA 1.6s dont make 160-170hp, and normal NA 1.8s dont make 170-195hp. Infact, a lot of turbo 1.6es or 1.8s dont even make that much power.

If you had ANY other NA powerplant with fixed cam timing and fixed cam lobe size making that much power, it would be a TOTAL dog during regular driving. They would be smelly, loud, dirty running cars with bad idles, and annoying little habits.

GSRs and Si's aren't TOTAL dogs down low (especially the GSR), they are inside of LEV vehicles, get great gas mileage, idle smoothly and are very driveable in traffic.

If you had an emissions friendly car with a great idle and good low end punch, the top end would suck really bad and you'd probably have to shift at 6k at max. Think cavalier or focus.

The GSR's and Si's top end is very good. They make power almost all the way to redline....and STILL get better gas mileage than "economy only" cars that make 50-60 less hp.

That's the advantage of VTEC. The best of both worlds.

BTW,

LS gas mileage: 25-31 HP: 140
GSR gas mileage: 25-31 HP: 170
ITR gas mileage: 25-30 HP: 195

</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VTEC doesn't really directly increase torque.


However, it facilitates the increase of torque.

Think about it this way. The B16A is criticized for not having torque.

Think about another NA 1.6L 160-170HP engine that is placed in a LEV vehicle that gets over 31mpg, is useable on the street, and still makes decent power for just tooling around.

It doesn't exist.

VTEC gives you the best of both worlds. You use a small cam down low for good low end, good emissions, good gas mileage, and a docile little street engine. Above 6k, that cam would make no power and fall flat on it's face. BOOORING.

Introduce a larger cam when needed, and the larger cam throws everything out the window except for making power.

If you were to take..say..a 4AGE corolla motor, which is dimensionally comparable to a B16A and made it make 170hp NA, it would be SOOOOOO shitty to drive on the streets. A B16A would feel like an LS1 compared to that engine.

The LS engine makes better low end than a GSR because of a few things.

Increased stroke. The B18A/B is bigger than the B18C by a few CCs. The increased stroke means more leverage for the pistons to put on the crank, which means more torque.

Small cam lobes. Smaller head ports. Restrict airflow just right, and make good low end.

Ignition timing tuned towards making better low end.

If you were to dyno a GSR with VTEC disabled, it would obviously make the same low end, less midrange, and a shitload less top end. It would probably end up with around 20-25hp less making around 145-150 crank hp...which is in the LS's realm.

Since VTEC is not enabled before around 4500RPM at the lowest (GSR), it has no affect on bottom end directly. Like I said before, it just facilitates the conditions for good low end CONSIDERING that the engine makes as much top end as it does with as little displacement as it has.

That is to say normal NA 1.6s dont make 160-170hp, and normal NA 1.8s dont make 170-195hp. Infact, a lot of turbo 1.6es or 1.8s dont even make that much power.

If you had ANY other NA powerplant with fixed cam timing and fixed cam lobe size making that much power, it would be a TOTAL dog during regular driving. They would be smelly, loud, dirty running cars with bad idles, and annoying little habits.

GSRs and Si's aren't TOTAL dogs down low (especially the GSR), they are inside of LEV vehicles, get great gas mileage, idle smoothly and are very driveable in traffic.

If you had an emissions friendly car with a great idle and good low end punch, the top end would suck really bad and you'd probably have to shift at 6k at max. Think cavalier or focus.

The GSR's and Si's top end is very good. They make power almost all the way to redline....and STILL get better gas mileage than "economy only" cars that make 50-60 less hp.

That's the advantage of VTEC. The best of both worlds.

BTW,

LS gas mileage: 25-31 HP: 140
GSR gas mileage: 25-31 HP: 170
ITR gas mileage: 25-30 HP: 195

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thank you, god dammit, its about the cam profiles, thats what it comes down to guys.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMguy88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If hp and torque are related and more hp = more torque, explain the 400+ hp hondas with around 200 ft/lb of torque</TD></TR></TABLE>

it is a FACT that torque is related to HP.

torque is the measure of radian force.
horsepower is derived from torque.

is a 400+hp with such low torque possible?
plug it into the equation before you judge the physics


200=400*5252/rpm

rpm=400*5252/200
rpm= 10504rpm

if a car can rev that high, it can produce 400hp with 200 torque..... theoretically...

this is putting all factors aside, like the temperature threshold of the engine block, weight of the car etc....

bottom line, <U>hp is a made up force. </U> as stated by the other guys
if you can tell me what exactly HP is without relating it to torque or horses, i will buy you a beer.


Modified by ZE12O at 3:11 AM 5/8/2008