Other than the long block, what else will i need to completely install a zc into my 1991 crx si? I plan on using my tranny, and my computer for now. i am gonna buy the swap from steve at hondamotorsonline.com, and it says complete longblock. Besides that, what do i need? Will the longblock come with the timing belt and other belts?

 

check this out...

http://www.hasport.com/M88_ZC_partslist.htm

Eric


[Modified by 90CivicEX, 6:09 PM 7/7/2002]

 

Hey in that link they say you need a distributor conversion harness to convert from Si to ZC.

From what I've researched on this swap, I thought it was a complete drop in swap, and that no wiring was need to be converted.

Is HASport just trying to sell us more stuff? Or do we actually need to do this wiring conversion to make it work?


[Modified by nihkon, 3:24 PM 7/7/2002]

 

hello

here is the list I have put together for my DOHC ZC swap (into my 1991 civic Si); of all the parts on there, the only one that's critical
is the HASport subharness. It's pretty cheap, and it comes with nice factory connectors. You could easily do your own wiring mods,
but it means doing some chopping & splicing (you have to change 2 wires - see the HASport site). The rest of the parts I am replacing
because I'd rather do them with the engine out. You should most definitely change the timing belt and cam cover gasket, and balancing
the injectors is also a very wise move. As far as all these parts go, I have compiled them from various internet sources and my own research.
I'm all set to do this in late July, so I hope all these bits actually fit!

Oh yeah, forgot to mention the hood; depending on who you talk to, you may or may not have some interference between the hood
and the DOHC cam cover. JDM hoods are the answer (expensive and a pain the ***), or chopping out some of the hood understucture.
I guess I'll be finding out soon!

good luck
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EXHAUST

-header (adapt SOHC ZC Holley Airmass by gasket-matching)
-hi-temp header collector-to-exhaust gaskets & new h/w
-high-flow cat
-mandrel-bent centre section
-Integra muffler (only if it fits and is bigger bore; if not, I'll stick with the stocker)


COOLING SYSTEM

-new radiator (stock Si)
-new radiator cap (stock Si)
-upper rad hose (86-89 Integra)
-lower rad hose (stock Si)


DRIVETRAIN

-clutch cable (stock Si)
-new clutch pressure plate, disc, & throw-out bearing (stock Si, same year as your Si transmission)
-pilot bearing (same as Si???)
-X4 engine mounts (stock Si)
-s/s braided brake lines (Earl’s)
-dot 5 silicone fluid
-EBC Greenstuff front pads
-shifter bushings (stock Si)


ENGINE

-D16A8/9 DOHC “ZC” engine
-PM7 ECU
-X2 AEM or DC etc. vernier cam gears
-timing belt (88 Prelude Si 2.0 litre, 14400-PK2-004)
-distributor cap (88 Integra, 30102-PM7-305)
-distributor rotor (88 Integra, 30103-PM5-A05)
-rear main seal (91214-PH3-751 1989 Integra)
-front main seal (91212-PE0-662 1989 Integra)
-X2 cam seals (same as 2.0 Prelude, I hope)
-if needed, new TPS (same as stock Si)
-valve cover gasket (88-89 Integra) & X4 o-rings
-oil pan gasket (stock Si)
-oil drain plug gasket
-plug wires (88-89 Integra)
-X4 NGK plugs (86-89 Integra NGKBCPRE-11)
-balance injectors (RC Engineering) & new gaskets/o-rings
-HASport harness (W88-Si-ZC, $70 CDN)
-alternator belt (same as stock Si?-have to figure it out once power steering is off)
-fuel filter
-exhaust manifold-to-head studs & h/w
-exhaust gasket (88 Integra, 18110-PG6-003, or even better a Mr. Gasket copper one)
-oil filter (88 Integra, 15400-PR3-004)
-water pump w/gasket (88-91 CRX, 19200-P01-004)
-thermostat w/gasket (stock Si?)
-K&N Typhoon intake (stock Si)
-flywheel resurfacing

 

On the filp side of the above post, I threw a timing belt on my ZC about 4 years ago when I dropped it in, and its still ticking like a charm (now turbo charged too). Even the water pump is still good. Honestly (an I mean no offense to the above poster who is doing things very thurough) if you spend $300 freshening up a ZC, and another $500 on the motor, you're going to be very dissappointed in the performance. A ZC is not worth that much money... and that's comming from a person who loves that motor. I hate to recommend something that most people will frown on, but I say take your chances. Replace the T-Belt, the plugs, and the Water Pump while its out. If you have to, replace the cap and rotor. There is no need to buy a distributor if it isn't bad. Nothing is really that much harder to get to with the motor in the car, so it isn't a big deal if something breaks later on. I say if it aint broke (or severly worn)... don't fix it.

As for the harness thing, tell hasport where they can put there harness. The motor is direct drop in. All of the wires you need are right there. The only difference is that your dist has a 7 wire round plug consisting of the following wires....

Blue
Blue/Yellow line

Peach
Peach/Blue line

White
White/Blue line
White/Thick/Red dot on end

The ZC on the other hand has one 2 wire plug going to the Cam Sensor, and one 5 wire plug going to the dist...

2 Wire plug consists of...

Blue
Blue/Yellow line

The 5 wire plug going to the dist consists of....

Peach
Peach/Blue line

White
White/Blue line
White/Thick/Red dot on end

You can see how simple this is. You literally just take a sharp tool (an aul should work [spelling] or a really small screw driver would work) and you pop the pins out of the plug on your Si harness and put them in to the plug on the ZC engine harness if it is still there (it should be there, just cut).

Its hard to explain, but a chimp could do this blind folded. I'm sure hasport means well, but if money is even the slightest issue, skip their harness. Its a waste.

Also remember to pay attention that the two similar white wires go to the right places. White thick goes to white thick.

Other than that, you should be set to do the swap.

For more on wiring.. enjoy this URL that will probably hit its hourly limit as soon as one person looks at it because geocities blows...

http://www.geocities.com/civiczc/zcwire.html

 

therealciviczc: Dude! Thanks for the info. And thanks for the the AWESOME wiring link! I just read through it. It makes total sense, and makes the job look WAY easy. That $200 harness from HASport is just for THAT??? hehehe

I am gonna call HondaMotorsOnline tomorrow and set something up with them. I am hoping to go pick up the ZC by next Tuesday, and I should have the Crx on the road a day or 2 later!! woohoo! I can't wait!!


Actually. . on a side note. . I do have another question regarding this swap:

I know that I'll be able to run the motor using my stock Si ECU. What advantages are there to using the actual ZC ECU?


[Modified by nihkon, 1:09 PM 7/8/2002]

 

A point of note! You don't need to chop on your hood, and you don't need a new hood. I couple washers to shim down the motor on the drivers side mount 1/4" and it fits perfect with the timing belt cover intalled. Yes the ZC hood looks cool but why spend the money for $.10 worth of washers. Cutting the hood saves you nothing the interferance isn't with the hood support structure, it never gets in the way at all, look. But the timing belt cover will dent the hood real good if you drop the hood without shimming the mount down. THats why the ZC hood has a bubble there. But why advertise whats under the hood to thieves. SHim the motor down and forget about it, its that easy. The JDM ZC ECU has the best fuel maps for the ZC, runs excellent, It makes the most power and has the best drivability. SI is the worst, teg is second best, but the ZC ECU is best. I have one in mine. BUT, it does have a 112 mph speed limiter in it like all JDM ECU's have, but it can be chipped if you race. I don't race so left mine as-is.


[Modified by virginia_dude, 8:17 AM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 8:18 AM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 8:22 AM 7/8/2002]

 

A point of note! You don't need to chop on your hood, and you don't need a new hood. I couple washers to shim down the motor on the drivers side mount 1/4" and it fits perfect with the timing belt cover intalled. Yes the ZC hood looks cool but why spend the money for $.10 worth of washers. Cutting the hood saves you nothing the interferance isn't with the hood support structure, it never gets in the way at all, look. But the timing belt cover will dent the hood real good if you drop the hood without shimming the mount down. THats why the ZC hood has a bubble there. But why advertise whats under the hood to thieves. SHim the motor down and forget about it, its that easy.

 

Thanks for the info on the ECU. I guess sometime in the near future after I do the swap, I will look for the ZC ECU. I think I've seen 'em on Ebay for like 50 bux.

As far as the hood goes. . .are you saying it will not fit AT ALL with the USDM hood? I was kinda counting on just cutting out the supports to make it fit, but it sounds like that won't work huh? I don't really follow what you mean about shimming down the motor. It seems to me if you add washers you'll end up moving the motor UP, not down. But I guess it'll probably be clear once I actually go out and look at it huh. I'm saving all my money for the swap right now, I can't afford to be buying a hood too!!

 

I don't know what he's smoking, but mine fit fine. And yes, I did cut up the lining to get it to fit. It's been two years and no bumps on the hood. But I have heard of people having problems with rubbing, so it depends on that particular hood and engine; I'd guess that 80-90% don't have any problems. So, rolling the dice, you should be fine.

You could get one on Ebay, but IMHO the best and least troublesome way to do it is to get the ecu reprogrammed by Zdyne. That way, you know that it will work, and you can get the speed limiter removed, for doing those 113-mph runs.

 

Yeah, I might want to get the reprogramming of my stock ecu done. I do wanna ditch that dang speed limiter!! How much does Zdyne charge for the reprogrammed ECU? Do they need a core?.. . Also. . .can I have the speed limiter removed from a ZC ecu fairly easily?

 

Well I had a nice dent I had to fix from the motor contacting the hood sheetmetal. So I speak from experience. Had to shim the drivers side mount with 3 flat washers on each of the two bolts and nothing hits anymore and I kept the full timiing belt cover. And I would say you have you munber wrong, the shimming of the drivers mount is well known. And I would venture that most people have some contact. and Since any contact will show since its timing belt cover on exterior hood sheetmetal, not hood support structure that hits. Besides if it fits at idle what is to say the first time you dump the clutch the motor shifting won't mess up your hood and paint job. What are 6 washers worth to you, a hood and paint job? ANd I have heard you can get either the Si or TEG ecu reprogrammed with ZC fuel maps. but for 200-250 dollars extra are you really going to be driving more than 112, not on autocross course and most likely not at the strip either. Roadracing course most likely. I have done a little bit of streetracing, (Stupid I know, but only 3 times) but never has the Speed limiter caused me any problems. and I paid $100 for my JDM ZC ECU when I bought my engine from the importer. ANd keep in mind with stock rods you don't want to be spinning that motor more than 7,200 rpms, unless you want to throw a rod or two.

[Modified by virginia_dude, 10:28 AM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 10:28 AM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 10:30 AM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 10:31 AM 7/8/2002]

 

Well, you're right about the price of washers vs. new hood, but it can't hurt to try the hood at idle and see how much room he has to play with to see if he needs to mod the position of the hood.

As far as ecus, I got my redone by Zdyne because I don't trust used ecus. I don't see $290 vs. $100 as a large enough difference to risk it, at least that's IMHO.

 

You don't mod the hood, you put the washers between the drivers side motor mount halves, it lowers the engine about 1/4" and leaves plenty of clearance. I bought my ZC ECU from a local shop that would have replaced it if it turned out bad. But I can see your point when you deal mail order about bad ECU's. A lot of junkyards have a 30 days or 30 feet whatever comes first warranty. A reputable shop would warranty the ECU since they can mark and seal it to avoid being scammed. But being fortunate enough to live close enough to one that let me hand pick my motor and did offer a true warranty on the engine and ECU I went the used route. I would be highly suspect of individules selling ECU's however, but then I got burned on not 1 but 2 Si transmissions that are worth their value as a case only since the gearsets are shot. THey were missrepresented and the guy has left his former job so I can't track his butt down so easily. But he got $200 of my hard erned money through misrepresented merchandise. And I want it back.


[Modified by virginia_dude, 12:05 PM 7/8/2002]

 

I use the 88-89 teg ECU. I've had no problems at all with it running rich or screwing anything up (O2 sensor, dist, etc) as sometimes people suggest. I've had it for about 3 1/2 years. I drive in all climates (Ohio weather goes from about negative 5 in the winter to 98 plus in the summer). You should be able to find the teg ECU for around $70 or less. I highly suggest it since it is so cheap. The Si ECU will work, but honestly, the Si ECU vs. the teg ECU feels like almost as much as the Si motor vs. the ZC motor... it's like half of the benefit of the swap. For the money, the teg is the way to go IMO. The only one thing I have notice that I just thought about, is sometimes, if its very humid out, the car will stumble a little if I'm pulling through my parking lot (slow speeds) at around 2000 rpm. Once the car is reved up a few times and warm its fine though. It could be anything, but might be the ECU.

As for the hood. I put a tiny washer under the latch of my hood, and it was fine. It rubs ever so slightly, but there again, in 4 years, its barely though the paint on the hood. I recently removed the washers because I no longer care about the paint under the hood and it makes the hood shut better. Its certainly not an issue to worry about at all. If your motor is hitting the hood hard, you probably need to check motor position and check your motor mounts (if it does it under acceleration).

I kind of said it in my above post, but I'll say it again and more straight forward. I don't mean to offend anyone or judge people's decitions. I have a lot of respect for doing things as well as possible, but I have to say... don't turn the easiest and cheapest Honda swap in to a high dollar high work production. A teg ECU works, so why spend $300 on a Zdyne? An Si hood works, so why drop $200 on a ZC hood? Its cool that people do things well, and I appreciate that, but if I had spent $1200 or $1500 or something high dollar on a ZC swap, I'd be looking to kick someones *** hard for leading me to belive I was going to get $1200 worth of performance. The ZC is a $500 - $700 swap for a reason... that's what its worth.

It just seems like people are always trying to get other people to buy all of these outlandishly overpriced things to complete their swap, but I like to look at it from a value perspective... I don't want to see you get scared away from doing a great swap because you think you need a hood, an ECU, a conversion harness, rings, valves, clutch, pressure plate, motor mounts, new dist, etc. Just keep it simple and you'll be fine.

*** meant to add. I don't recommend it, but you can rev a ZC much higher than 7200 rpm without breaking anything. When I drag race mine, I shift off of the rev limiter without letting off the gas. That's at 7500 rpm. Its obvisouly not good for the motor, but I didn't put it in there for longevity. I put it in there for fun. On my dyno chart, I'm still making good power at that RPM, so I've got to use it!!! Again, I didn't want you to be afraid to work your motor hard.... on occasion.

[Modified by therealciviczc, 5:10 PM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by therealciviczc, 5:10 PM 7/8/2002]

 

I have $2,500 total in my car, That included the price of the '89 DX hatch, New Paint job, TEG GSR rims and tires, KYB stuts and suspension Techniques springs to drop it 2", front and rear seats from a '93 Civic HB, ZC engine , ECU and Trans, Integra axels. SO I know what the Low Buck approach is. Shim the motor down, unless you clay the gap between the hood and timing cover how are you going to be 100% certain you will clear, a couple washers and mine NEVER contacts the hood, even during hard lauches, and I do that a lot. Oh, and I made my own engine harness fron the cut ZC one and my DX harness, and many honda Mechanics have commented my install looks like it came from the factory. They could not tell My harness was completely redone. THe ZC hood has a bubble to clear the timing cover, it it cleared all the hoods, honda would not have done that. My engine placement is correct, the stock mounts don't exactly let you put them where ever you want.


[Modified by virginia_dude, 12:20 PM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 12:22 PM 7/8/2002]


[Modified by virginia_dude, 12:25 PM 7/8/2002]

 

That's what I'm taking about!! I'll bet your car is well worth the $2500 you spent too!

I was at about $3200 total in mine, but I bought it back in 1994, so the price was higher on them back then. That's for a 91 Si hatch, similar mods except I'm sticking with the Si trans. I love the gearing!

Yeah, the washers are the way to go. I can't see telling someone they need to have a hood to complete the swap. That's my only point. Nonthing other than the motor and some time is NEEDED to do the swap (in an Si). The point about the mounts is that you can move the motor a little bit. There is a slight amount of adjustment in the mounts. Also, if the motor is only hitting under acceleration, the mounts are probably bad. It really shouldn't be moving that much.

Mine has since gone up in cost due to the turbo... but a turbo always ends up costing too much money.


[Modified by therealciviczc, 5:33 PM 7/8/2002]

 

My hood came down hard on the timing cover with the motor turned off. And you will get some movement on the mounts but why settle for rubbing when its so easy to make sure there is no contact. My swap was harder than yours due to converting from DPFI to MPFI But did it all myself with no other help than the people on this board. Did everything alone, engine and everything no second set of hands. It was fun but was stressful until I heard it fire when I started it. Ran right the first try. I recomend Buying Honda brand timing belt. I put a Gates on mine at first, but after having it jump time 4 times in the first 1,000 miles I put a honda belt on it and have had no trouble since. I'm going to go the Homemade CAI route described in the DelSole board soon too. Trying to decide on a full exhaust and header or just the axelback route with the stock ZC 4-2-1, but really think I will get the DC header and catback, can't find a used one of those localls and don't trust anyone enough to send money up fron to buy it used by mail. Since I got burned on two used Si transmissions. I bought my ZC trans recently. A few weeks ago, but car has been running with ZC for about 8 months. I barely motice the difference between the ZC and Si transmissions except for the lack of tourqe steer with the ZC. Si required a firm grip on the wheel during spirited driving. ZC goes where I point it without fighting me during hard acceleration.


[Modified by virginia_dude, 1:06 PM 7/8/2002]

 

hey guys

the dude who bought too many parts here.... seriously, though, I like the sounds of the washers under the mounts, but does
this affect the geometry of the drivetrain at all? One of you guys must have a conversion with a whole bunch of miles on it, so
any problems would have shown up by now, right? Are the engine mount bolts long enough for the spacers?
And yeah, I did get way too many parts, but I'm having a load of fun with this!
Besides, my crappy cheap clutch judders like a gin alcholic, my engine mounts wouldn't support a Briggs & Stratton mower, and
I have had bad experiences with oil seals contaminating clutches, and my exhaust is pieced together, and....... well, you see
how I got carried away.

peace

 

Moving your engine 1/4" is not going to affect anything. I would venture to guess there is substatially more variance than that amoung any 5 cars you randomely pull off the street of the same make year and model. think about it. the engine and tranny move as an assy, wanna bet your car sets lower on the drivers side with just you in it, same difference, CVS joints compensate for the tiny amount, its less than the difference your car probibly sits at unloaded side to side with height difference. and and you still have 100% thread engagement with the two nuts . that is the critical issue, use thread lock if you are concerned at all. I would not be the slicghtest bit concerned. Most B-18/B-18 swaps forgo the front mount to make it work, that is riskier. you are still using all 4 original mounts. I said only 3 washers on each of the 2 bolts, its 1/4" not 1".

 

therealciviczc Man I wish I had that link when I was changing out my dist. That **** explains it so much better. I had such a hard time with it...took me like 6 hours to get it right. http://www.geocities.com/civiczc/zcwire.html Should be bookmarked if you own a ZC, cause their distributors suck ***.


[Modified by Smokinsax, 5:44 AM 7/9/2002]