okay. i'm a noob do suspension settings. i ran a search and did not find and answer to my problem, with my settings. here is where i'm at:

my car is dropped a bit. here is a pic:



Spoon N1 coil overs. 1400/1600, i believe, with the heavier springs in the rear (trying to fight under steer).

OEM sway bars

camber kit in front. , no kit/shims in the rear.

as far as i can tell.. the combination of negative camber in the rear and OEM specs in the front are causing the nasty under steer. the car pushes any time i put any decent speed into a corner. only after letting off gas can i get the car to rotate.
safe. yes. fun? no.
the car is daily driven and will be doing a few auto-x events. MAYBE a track day.. so i'm not worried about that. i do "spirited" driving in the mountains. nothing dangerous, but enough i still feel the push. accelerating through a corner is out of the question.

here are my specs:

LF:
camber: -0.6
caster: .7
toe: 0
SAI: 5.8

RF:
camber: -1.3
caster: 0
toe: 0
SAI: 10.9

LR:
camber: -2.3
toe: .11

RR:
camber: -1.0
toe: .06

reason for some of the settings not matching left to right:

car hit a curb at one point (right-side suspension damage). assuming a suspension piece on front right is bent, that would explain the incorrect caster setting, which i have no way to adjust. i'm currently collecting all new pieces to replace entire RF side. i'm hoping the damage is limited to suspension pieces only. if not,
the RR trailing arm was also affected. the spindle was torn out of the trailing arm. trailing arm was replaced, i believe the spindle to be bent.. which would account for the camber setting. an "accidental" camber adjustment, i suppose. i'm planning on shimming the LR trailing arm (shim camber-kit method). to match until i but another trailing arm/spindle and shim that side as well.

to answer some questions that may come up: i'm told the different camber settings will compensate for the different camber settings in regards to the car not pulling to one side. i think my alignment shop was lazy. i dunno.
car still pulls to the left unless i put an extra 5-10lbs or air in the LF tire (ghetto. yes).

all this babbling and i haven't made my point:

how much camber should i be looking to add to the front? i don't need max performance at the cost of drastic, uneven tire wear. but i need more bit. that is certain.
make your assumptions know that i will be adjusting LR camber to match RR (-1.0)

so. suggestions, please??

 

i'm thinking if i ditch my front camber kit i'll be fine. and yes, i know: "get the car in a rack and/or replace out-of-spec pieces THEN worry about alignment". but i still need specs to deal with until then and after.


Modified by kaj at 5:55 PM 2/24/2008


Modified by kaj at 5:55 PM 2/24/2008

 

I have heard that -2 deg is still "OK" for not having excessive tire wear. If you hate understeer so much, there are other ways to reduce it. Another thing you might want to consider is getting higher grip tires. Maybe you won't wish for less understeer anymore

I also noticed that you put springs that are designed for the rear into the fronts. Are you sure you aren't bottoming out the front suspension?

 

there are various reasons why you put stiffer springs up front, and one of them is to have less understeer while accelerating in corners. Yes, understeer. Because in corners, your car weight is shifted to either left or right. When you brake-release-pause-accelerate in corners, the shifted weight will move even more a bit, right? (since you accelerate and put more weight on the shifted side.) That's the time when the car will start to understeer. Therefore you put stiffer spring up front to minimize the movement of the weight in corners.

Grab some high-grip tires for all four. If you want to feel oversteer, put wider tires up front than rears. put about -2.5~-3.0 degree of camber up front and leave the rear with stock UCA. Set your coilover to have front an inch lower than rear.
This is just my reference of tuning suspension. There are like million ways to make more oversteer/understeer. But please dont mismatch the springs on high-quality coilovers like yours.

good luck!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have heard that -2 deg is still "OK" for not having excessive tire wear. If you hate understeer so much, there are other ways to reduce it. Another thing you might want to consider is getting higher grip tires. Maybe you won't wish for less understeer anymore

I also noticed that you put springs that are designed for the rear into the fronts. Are you sure you aren't bottoming out the front suspension?</TD></TR></TABLE>

-2 degrees. wow. i was planning on doing 1.5. i'm looking into other options. maybe swapping the front/rear springs back to 1600 front/1400 rear. i reset the dampeners to "3" in the back and "2" in the front. we'll see how that does.
i'm going to adjust my LR camber to 1 degree to match the RR.
i'm looking into an adjustable rear sway bar.
let's see. what else.. tires. these tires grip decent and wear really well (neo gen 205s). they are narrower than i usually run... and i'm used to Azenis. maybe that's part of my disappointment.
front suspension has full travel. the springs are 1400s. no WAY they are bottoming out. this i know for sure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TotalBalance &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there are various reasons why you put stiffer springs up front, and one of them is to have less understeer while accelerating in corners. Yes, understeer. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i'm still learning. if this is correct, then i will swap the springs back ASAP. the guy that sold me the coil overs gave me the recommendation to swap front/back. he said the car handled better that way and i didn't know any better.

i will swap them out on Tuesday and post the results. i work a 24 hr shift mon-tues.. so i gotta wait 'till then i can't wait to try it out!

thanks for the info, guys!!

 

those rate are too heavy for street tire. switch to a lower rate and your car will be much happier turning. btw, when exactly your understeer happen? during turn in? or accel while exiting corner? or what?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spoon_ek9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">those rate are too heavy for street tire. switch to a lower rate and your car will be much happier turning. btw, when exactly your understeer happen? during turn in? or accel while exiting corner? or what?</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah. the springs came with the coil overs. if i'm not mistaken, the springs are pretty cheap. i'll work with what i have. .. change it up later.
i don't really notice the stiffness. these shocks are dampened perfectly, IMO. the ride is VERY reasonable.
as for my understeer, it happens mid-corner, as i attempt to get on the gas. turn in is fine.. then it will start to push.. so i have to let off or ease up on the throttle and tap the brake a bit. i have to wait REALLY late to get on the gas..

 

need more camber up front. -2 is fine. what you would have gotten without the camber kit quite frankly.

even out the toe in the rear. (the reason for your bad alignment) get it closer to zero overall too.

try 1/16" overall toe out in the front.

get a type R rear swaybar.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">need more camber up front. -2 is fine. what you would have gotten without the camber kit quite frankly.

even out the toe in the rear. (the reason for your bad alignment) get it closer to zero overall too.

try 1/16" overall toe out in the front.

get a type R rear swaybar.</TD></TR></TABLE>

-1.5 to -2 is what i was considering. that is why i mentioned ditching the camber kit. i was also advised to 0 the rear toe and add 1/16" total out, in the front to compensate for added toe-in during braking.
i have the OEM sway bar in the rear.

 

i think i'm on the right track. thanks, again, guys.

 

lol@typer sway bar.

thought it was a gsr. missed the decal.

try taking off the front.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol@typer sway bar.

thought it was a gsr. missed the decal.

try taking off the front. </TD></TR></TABLE>

LOLz

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kaj &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

-1.5 to -2 is what i was considering. that is why i mentioned ditching the camber kit. i was also advised to 0 the rear toe and add 1/16" total out, in the front to compensate for added toe-in during braking.
i have the OEM sway bar in the rear. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The front toes out under braking. But not by much, coz your springs are so dam stiff and your tires so wimpy that I doubt the car tilts much. I would recommend zero toe for street driving, unless you want to scrub off your tires. IMHO it sounds to me like your understeer problems come from your driving style. Are you early apexing your turns?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The front toes out under braking. But not by much, coz your springs are so dam stiff and your tires so wimpy that I doubt the car tilts much. I would recommend zero toe for street driving, unless you want to scrub off your tires. IMHO it sounds to me like your understeer problems come from your driving style. Are you early apexing your turns?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i meant toe in, sorry. i was assuming the guy i quoted meant "in". i saw the "1/16"" and assumed. 1/16" in is what i meant.
how do my tires affect dive under braking?
as for apexing: no, i do not. and the tire pushes pretty bad anywhere. freeway on/off ramps. mountain roads. any time i try and carry any decent amount of momentum in a turn. no, my tires are not the best.. but the rear stays planted unless i MAKE it come around.
i dislike that much understeer.

 

Another possibility is that you are either bottoming or topping out your suspension, causing the inside front wheel to lift.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Another possibility is that you are either bottoming or topping out your suspension, causing the inside front wheel to lift.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i thought about that. but i have plenty of travel. also, i have the understeer even during constant cornering.. say.. a freeway onramp. nice and steady. no sudden change.. and it just starts to push. much earlier than it should, IMO.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kaj &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i thought about that. but i have plenty of travel. </TD></TR></TABLE>

not with 1600 lbs springs you don't. Do you realize that in the front, you have about 1.2" worth of travel before you lift a wheel and/or top our your suspension? Do you know how much travel you have in the rear?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

not with 1600 lbs springs you don't. Do you realize that in the front, you have about 1.2" worth of travel before you lift a wheel and/or top our your suspension? Do you know how much travel you have in the rear?</TD></TR></TABLE>

the spring rates are not in lbs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kaj &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the spring rates are not in lbs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Then maybe you can provide the spring rates and lengths with the appropriate units.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Then maybe you can provide the spring rates and lengths with the appropriate units.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you know how those crazy japanese people are. everything's metric they are tagged 1400 and 1600. i believe the it's the same as 14kg/mm and 16kg/mm. we found the conversion into LBS once.. the spoons should be 770lbs and 880lbs.
as for lengths? i dunno what spoon uses. i'll try to find that too.

 

Well 880 lbs/in is only "too high" and no longer "stupid high".

Here's my thoughts on the matter. I don't think there is much more I can add. The ITR with this setup is not supposed to have that much understeer.
Therefore, the possibilities are:
A: You complain too much and aren't driving it right.

B: the low grip of your tires creates the impression of understeer because you are able to break them loose so easily.

C: The car is damaged. The frame or suspension is bent, doing all kind of weird stuff that I don't even want to guess at.

D: The springs are set up wrong.
Due to spring length or preload + bent chassis, you are topping out or bottoming out your suspension. Or maybe the corner weight is totally off.

E: Maybe the car really needs some more oversteer after all. So there is a long list of things to do to create this.

IMHO, you should really work on parts A-D before getting to E.
Don't forget that driving mountain roads is not like autocross, due to the presence of "downhill decreasing radius turns".

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well 880 lbs/in is only "too high" and no longer "stupid high".

Here's my thoughts on the matter. I don't think there is much more I can add. The ITR with this setup is not supposed to have that much understeer.
Therefore, the possibilities are:
A: You complain too much and aren't driving it right.

B: the low grip of your tires creates the impression of understeer because you are able to break them loose so easily.

C: The car is damaged. The frame or suspension is bent, doing all kind of weird stuff that I don't even want to guess at.

D: The springs are set up wrong.
Due to spring length or preload + bent chassis, you are topping out or bottoming out your suspension. Or maybe the corner weight is totally off.

E: Maybe the car really needs some more oversteer after all. So there is a long list of things to do to create this.

IMHO, you should really work on parts A-D before getting to E.
Don't forget that driving mountain roads is not like autocross, due to the presence of "downhill decreasing radius turns".</TD></TR></TABLE>

so.. you are saying -1.5 to -2 degrees of camber is sufficient?

 

so when are you going to stop discussing this and just get an alignment already?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so when are you going to stop discussing this and just get an alignment already?</TD></TR></TABLE>

the alignment is coming regardless when i get a day off of work. but before i got it done, i wanted to get opinions on the numbers i should shoot for. i'd say i have a fairly reasonable amount of info.

thanks again, guys.

i can't believe they call this place Hater-Tech. psh! i mean, really....