Im not trying to start anything, but i recently read a thread that just didnt make sense to me.

Im not a tuner, but i have been involved with numerous 600-900whp cars. From Supras, Evos, Hondas, personal cars, etc.

Recently on an EVO forum, a guy posted claiming 618whp on his evo with a GT35R, ON PUMP GAS.

NO FUEL ADDITIVES (OCTANE BOOSTER), NO METHANOL, NO ALCOHOL, NOTHING. STRAIGHT UP PUMP GAS OUT OF THE GAS STATION PUMP.

Boost was 30-33psi on different runs. Intake Air Temps were showing 68 degrees

They are claiming this is "normal" and "safe" to run on pump at that boost.

Car does have a bushur built 2.1L engine (JE pistons an whatever else he puts in it)

I know EVOs STOCK have been known to run 20-22psi straight off the dealership floor. But 20-22psi on a 16G sure is a bit different than 30+psi on a 35R.

How can a car doing 30psi on Pump Gas only see 68 IATs? ive NEVER seen that on any car unless it was with methanol. How do you tune a car aggresively enough to make that kind of power on pump gas? What about ignition timing? How do you run 30psi+ on 93octane and not have detonation?

My question is, is it really STREETABLE and SAFE? Why can an EVO do it, but a B/K, 2JZ,RB, SR cant? What makes it so special?

Again, just trying to see some technical opinions and tuners opinions about pump gas threshholds, boost on pump gas, and their personal experience.

Thanks!

 

im not one of the guys listed above, but the evo guys love to "forget" to mention methanol injecton and claim their 600 horsepower cars are on pump gas.

no way in hell they did it with out the meth

dont always believe everything you read on the internet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo-charged &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im not one of the guys listed above, but the evo guys love to "forget" to mention methanol injecton and claim their 600 horsepower cars are on pump gas.

no way in hell they did it with out the meth

dont always believe everything you read on the internet.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh i dont believe it at all. But They were clear, STRAIGHT UP PUMP GAS, NO METHANOL.

NO ADDITIVES.

Reason why they can do it is :
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bushur &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It is VERY possible to run 30 psi on pump gas, actually it really isn't even difficult to be honest. My brothers car is running 33 psi and is on a very small turbo which makes it more difficult.

I'm actually surprised how many people find it so hard to believe. It's all about the parts combination and tuning, if you have that right..........no problems.

68 degree intake air temps have nothing to do with the octane or tuning. It's the intercooler that regulates the intake air temps. The car has our LARGE Race FMIC on it. Next, you are correct in what you said, "22psi on a stock turbo is not the same as 30-33psi on a 35R" but not in the way you meant it. Running 30 psi on a GT35r is MUCH easier to do than trying to run high boost on a stock turbo. The larger the turbine wheel the easier it is to run high boost on low octane and the GT35r compressor wheel is much more efficient than a stock turbo pushing 22 psi, this means the turbo outlet temps are cooler with a larger more efficient compressor wheel too, making it easier to run high boost on pump gas.

I would think that running 30 psi on a Supra engine would be pretty easy too. I've never pushed one that hard, I have tuned a few. I know the last one I did 22-23 psi was easy and that's all the owner wanted. Looking at the map and logs from it now I don't see a reason why that Supra couldn't have run 30 psi on 93-94 octane fuel</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree with it all, but i want to see professional opinions

 

for what its worth, i ran 25psi on my street car all day every day for 2 years, but it was only making about 400whp (9:1 b16 sleeved)

hell i mean it may be possible to crank the boost, cross your fingers and make a pull or 2, but i refuse to beleive there is any kind of reliability.


did they mention compression ratio or post the actual dyno graph?

from my experiance on honda motors....once you get around 500 on pump gas your perfectly smooth dyno chart starts to become wavey from either lack of octane or lack of ignition timing, or a combination of both. but more importantly who wants a ticking time bomb?

 

The readings are fudged, the information provided is lacking, or they made a couple of clean pulls to show off they can do it and then brought things down to a reasonable level. Remember, bigger bore with lower compression pistons makes a huge difference when tuning. Also if it has a nice short stroke and revs pretty high, it makes detonation very very difficult. Short stroke is why bikes can run high compression and make a lot of power on pump gas. The piston just moves too fast to even have detonation occur. I'd say it is possible to get a couple of clean 600whp pulls on 93 octane but I wouldn't give the car much time running like that on the street.

The guy from Bushur is speaking like a fool. Temperature plays a roll, but I'd rather deal with 120* IATs and 300whp than 600whp and 70* IATs any day of the week. At 600whp, your cylinder pressure is going to be way higher than 300whp dispite the 50* in IATs. Lower cylinder pressure matters way way way more than the difference in temperature.

 

i can get 101 octane pump gas down the street, and i know a million people who claim big numbers with pump gas but there referring to 101 octane pump gas, thas probably what this guy is doing, or just lying... or if it was on a mustang dyno that explains it right there, you just change some calibrations and you make it say anything you want

 

i would like to see what the ambient conditions were. 68F inlet temp with an air to air a that boost level is difficult to show unless its very cold outside(colder than 68 since the a2a will never be 100% efficient) or your temp sensor is just plain wrong(or slow, which is the same thing as wrong)

 

e85?

 

im thinking e85, or in my case here in idaho we have 110 octane at a "pump" have to pump it into a can first then into my tank, but it technically comes from a pump

 

Ask what Octane he's running.

"Pump" gas is a little to vague now-a-days.

 

93 octane is the "pump" used

 

i think its all BS until it hits the track.Like said before, just re-calibrating a dyno can produce thise results.

Who knows, maybe he really did do it, but GL driving it more than weekends.

 

Maybe the ambient temperature was 14 degrees that day, and he had his own "pump" connected to a drum of c16.

 

On straight 93 octane the engine wont last. Anything is possible on a dyno for a few pulls, actually lasting for any significant amount time is another story. I have had some mishaps on customers car while on 93 octane and boost spike setting up boost controllers, or the vacuum routing being all wrong to the wastegate and made some retarded numbers on larger turbo set-ups. The engines last through the pull, but you can see that it was starting to knock on the plugs badly. There just isnt enough octane to support stable combustion with making huge power on straight 93 octane.

 

it is hard to believe the kind of power bushur is getting out of those hta35r's and on pump gas as well...but at the same time his personal full weight street car is running middle 9's at over 150(albeit on c16) which is alot faster then i ever thought id see a 35r powered car go...i personally ran 22lbs daily (t4 35r) on 92 octane in my civic (85mm sleeved b18c 9.0:1)for quite a long time and never had any problems at all....anyway here is the thread link for those who may wanna read through the details..
http://forums.evolutionm.net/s...26280

 

Where is the iat mounted on those cars? With my obd2 iat mounted in the charge pipe i can easily get temps down that low on a cold day. However I have a hard time believing it shows those temps if its in the intake mani. I havent seen a car running boost like that with the temps so low in the intake manifold.

 

An IAT of 68F is a stretch at best, much less 2.2bar on 93.

 

So the Evo guys have stopped calling each other column tuners long enough to fudge dyno sheets? That's progress

 

I just wanted to see how far people have pushec their pump gas setups. Is there any honda making 500-600whp on pump gas out there?

I pretty much said the numbers were bullshit and i got laughed at and told that 30psi wasnt that big of a deal on pump gas.

I merely wanted to get other professional opinions. All the EVO guys are acting like the rest of the "import community" is way behind and its nothing new for them.

Trying to see why we are so far behind

 

Last Evo I raced was making 510 awhp off a GT35R and stinking of racegas, had trouble keeping up with a street tuned pumpgas Integra I had hooked my gear up to two hours previously. Guy wanted to go from a 40 roll as he was afraid of fragging his transmission, while we were out holeshotting with V8s.

If they've figured out some way to make an extra 100 awhp, and on cheaper gas to boot, frankly they need it to catch up. I've little love for small displacement engines in 3500 lb chassis dropped across inefficient - and fragile - AWD drivelines, and then thinking a turbo is enough to make the car a balanced contender on the street or on the track. Those and Scoobies are a family of cars whose design is based on Rally, purchased by a bunch of clueless twits who are afraid to drive 15 mph on a gravel road as they might chip the paint on their rocker panels. I imagine they are just eating up 600 whp AWD GT35R pumpgas stories, that market is populated by the sort of fools who would believe it.

 

haha I had no idea you were so in love with the snobby AWD crowd. I agree on some points but there is something about a 550whp STI or evo that is just plain fun. I kinda like the feeling of both ends stepping out as you hit tq peak in 2nd. Do I want to afford to drive and fix one? no. Are they big dyno number crybabies? yes. I'm sure 700awhp on pumpgas is right around the corner for them

 

Yeah, they pretty much suck.

What's funny is the cool AWD guys who use their cars to rally get treated like **** by the high dollar AWD/turbo snobs. All the local 1.8 or 2.5RS guys are FREAKING AWESOME to chill with, and actually use their cars for what they are meant to be used for. I've taken old 80's GL hatches places trucks have trouble going, and you don't need a lot of power in one of those machines to have it be a badass ride. Completely unlike an Evo/Scooby that hits 3-400 awhp and acheives mediocrity in their chosen element.



The way it should be done!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Joseph Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Last Evo I raced was making 510 awhp off a GT35R and stinking of racegas, had trouble keeping up with a street tuned pumpgas Integra I had hooked my gear up to two hours previously. Guy wanted to go from a 40 roll as he was afraid of fragging his transmission, while we were out holeshotting with V8s.first of all i have to say that evo drivetrain is fairly robust and doesnt just break like a dsm

If they've figured out some way to make an extra 100 awhp, and on cheaper gas to boot, frankly they need it to catch up. I've little love for small displacement engines in 3500 lb chassis dropped across inefficient - and fragile - AWD drivelines, and then thinking a turbo is enough to make the car a balanced contender on the street or on the track. i have owned many hondas and i own an evo as well,the evo turns and stops 100x better then any honda i have owned Those and Scoobies are a family of cars whose design is based on Rally, purchased by a bunch of clueless twits who are afraid to drive 15 mph on a gravel road as they might chip the paint on their rocker panels. when you drop nearly 30k on a car most people dont just wanna go bounce it off trees in the woods secondly more and more guys are starting to buy evo's and i can say that ive seen the evo forum shifting from the "clueless twits" to a more intellegent diy crowd I imagine they are just eating up 600 whp AWD GT35R pumpgas stories, that market is populated by the sort of fools who would believe it.as far as that goes it does seem unbelievable to make that much power but then at the same time running mid 9's on a 35r also seems a little far fetched as well but bushur somehow managed to do it</TD></TR></TABLE>


Modified by reactiondc2 at 9:22 AM 2/24/2008

 

The bottom end is built. The head is port and polished. The car originally made something like 570whp (?) on Dave's Mustang Dyno and made 618whp on a DynoJet in the customer's state. It's very hard for me to believe but I can't discredit Dave Buscher as he has always been straight forward. The most I have personally made on pump gas was 499whp. That was with a Honda. The most I have personally made on pump gas with an EVO was 472whp. I'm sure it had a little more left in it but I left it at that. I guess time will tell with this EVO

 

618awhp is a GT35R maxed out....I don't think 93 octane would support the timing advance you would need to run to make the power. Actually, I know it wont...68deg IAT sounds off too, for a turbo running almost 100%, A2A IC and sitting ona Dyno with a fan in front of it. Should be closer to 100deg IAT...