Hello folks,

I'm considering boosting my car sometime in the future. I still have a lot of learning to do, but I hope that somebody can point me in the right direction. I have a stock B18c1, and what I'm looking for is a turbo setup that gives as much low end torque as possible with very little lag. You could say like a V6. I mostly use the car for daily and recreational driving, so I don't go over 6k rpm that often. I've read that it's horsepower that kills engines, not psi or torque, so I don't mind having the boost drop off at the higher rpms. In fact, I don't even care about peak HP all that much- I just want more low end torque.

So far, all I know is that I want a "small" turbo. I might start with the Greddy kit, which I believe has a TD05H-18G. This is for smog legal reasons. Would there be a better turbo for my application?

 

Smallest turbo I ran was a GT28R. It spooled instantly and made about 250whp around 8-9psi. This was on a stock gsr.

Since you live in CA and smog is an issue you probably wanan stick to a kit that promotes being legit for emissions.

 

I had a t3/t4 57 trim stage 3 exhaust wheel, .60/.48 AR's. The hot side is considered by MANY to be small, but I had this on a 2.0 LS/VTEC motor, it pulled till redline (8700) and made 400 WHP at 20-21 PSI. IT did start to create quite a bit of heat at that psi, but for a daily driver this was SICK. I could just touch the gas and zoom by someone!!!

I had over 150ft lbs of tourqe at like 2500 rpms, total torqe was 311ft lbs!!!!!!

in an EG civic, this car never lost a race at the track or street races to many evo's and subies......low 12 sec timeslip on <U>street tires </U>all the time!!!!

This turbo is considerably cheaper than a GT series turbo. I am getting this turbo again on my next build.

 

Another option is the turbo i used to run; the GT3255b. Its a journal bearing turbo similar to the 57 trim, but its designed to spool faster. If you search my name, you'll find a few threads about it. I made 315/216 with it at 10psi on a stock GSR with full boost by 3800rpm on the street.

 

Supercharge it, instant torque, just feels like you have a bigger motor. They work great up to about 8 PSI and come with a CARB sticker.

 

GT28rs sounds like your ticket, if your low on cash a t3/t04b should be good too.

 

I have a gt28rs that I just got back from garrrett.

They put in fresh center section and wheels, and brand new exhaust side housing.
This thing is brand new.

I ran a 12.30 with this thing on a stock d16.

 

greddy 18g... Spools super duper fast. Half fun first couple gears trying to keep the tires down.

 

Thanks to all that replied. It looks like for me, the way to go is either JRSC, or Greddy kit, due to CARB legality. However, if I got the Greddy kit, I'd probably want to add an intercooler and BOV anyway for better reliability.

So here's some questions I came up with:

I get the impression that the JRSC kit somehow seems more reliable and needs less tuning than a turbo system. Is this true?

I've heard people talk about small turbos as having "no lag" and making boost early. How close is such a system to a SC in these regards? For the type of driving I would do, I'll mainly be between 2.5-5k rpm, and I would like good throttle response.

I was thinking of using some kind of boost control that would give a lot of psi at low rpm and taper off at higher rpms, since I would rather have more reliability than horsepower. Is there anything wrong with this approach? For a small turbo, will this help prevent reaching the choke limit?

Is the JRSC also capable of tapering off boost at higher rpms?

How much extra noise does the JRSC make?

Thanks

 

It may be HP that breaks ****, but torque will burn a weak clutch up if its 500wtq at 7k rpm or 700 rpm. Your best bet is to go drive a turbo Honda that doesn't have a large turbo on it. You'd be surprised how fast the turbo will spool up.

As for a JRSC, it may spool instantly, but you have to consider the down side. Occationally the belt may break or come off, and the overall lack of power. An 18g turbo kit w/o intercooler will have lower IAT's at a given PSI than a JRSC, and therefore make a bit more HP. Now you can always upgrade a turbo kit, but on a Honda, you're pretty much stuck with your JRSC (from a cost/feasability standpoint).

Just an FYI, I've driven a few Hondas the used straight T3's. They usually had 3" exhaust or were just the DP w/o cat/muffler, so they didn't die off on top as people always claim. The 1.6L motors made full boost around 3k, and held more power to redline than most semi-built NA 1.8L motors (*** dyno). Now if your goal is to increase your low & mid range, I'd lean towards a T3 60trim .63A/R stg3 turbo if you go custom. That would allow for 300whp, but hit 10psi by about 3500rpm with a stock exhaust.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Now if your goal is to increase your low & mid range, I'd lean towards a T3 60trim .63A/R stg3 turbo if you go custom. That would allow for 300whp, but hit 10psi by about 3500rpm with a stock exhaust.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wouldn't I want a lower AR?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beanbag &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Wouldn't I want a lower AR?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you're looking to hold boost all the way to redline, yes, you'll need that .63 a/r on the hot side. A .48 a/r turbine housing on that particular turbo would probably choke before redline.

 

EIther option should work well, and for a CARB daily driver I'd probably recommend a Greddy kit or a JRSC as well.

The main difference between a JRSC and a turbo will be the way that they deliver torque. The SC is "always on", it's just bypassed when you don't have your foot in it. The turbo has to spool every time that you apply the throttle, so you have a torque ramp every time that you accelerate, where a JRSC gives tou a flatter torque curve. The turbo should also stay efficient at higher boost pressures and airmass, so on a B18C1 a JRSC will tend to taper off as you approach red line. The Greddy kit will probably do the same though without any supporting mods.

Here's a couple of dynos of a JRSC and a Greddy kit on Integras, you can see how the torque builds rapidly to a peak, then flattens and later tapers off with a Greddy kit, where the JRSC starts higher and makes a smooth arc across the RPM range:





The JRSC will just feel like you have a bigger motor, where the Greddy kit will give you a rush of torque as it spools up that's a lot of fun, just not as smooth.


Either kit should be reliable and easy to tune, and a stock JRSC isn't noisy. The big issue that I see with either kit is:

JRSC: Belts - The lower alternator casting on a JRSC kit is a little off. On later kits they include shim washers for the upper mount to make sure that the belt lines up properly, and if you shim it correctly the belts last for 10K-20K and are relatively simple to replace when necessary. If you don't get it on there right, then it will be a constant headache, not holding boost and going through belts frequently.


Turbo: You can easily raise the boost any time that you feel like it - A guy wrote an article that says it the best, I copied it here:

http://s115271005.onlinehome.u...p.htm

 

rmc: Thanks for the informative reply. I'm wondering on that dyno sheet you show of the Greddy, whether the lack of low end torque is due to spool up time, or whether it is due to the turbo not making boost at low rpms. So for example, if you did a dyno pull in 5th gear, where the rollers spin up slowly, would the dyno plot be any different?

Anyway, it seems like you've driven both SC and turbo cars. The main gist of my question was whether a "small, fast spooling" turbo can ever have the responsiveness and feel of a "always on" SC.

Oh, BTW, that article you linked to seems to give some pretty bad advice.

 

That's the turbo not making boost at low RPM's, but there will always be spool time. Even if you put your foot in it at 4500 RPM in 4th gear, the turbo still has to spool, although it will do it pretty quickly. On a low-boost setup like a Greddy kit it can be pretty instantaneous though, so it's not bad, but not the same as a SC. For street use it's fine, although I prefer a SC. For track use I found it unsettling, although I ran over 20 PSI at the track so the torque ramp was huge.

That guy did blow up some motors doing what he recommends, but he got it right about why people blow up their turbo Honda motors. I've done that myself when I first got started and seen others do the same. A set of pistons seems to be part of the learning curve sometimes.

 

If you're looking for quick spool AND a turbo that wont die off until redline (or close to it), then you need to consider your manifold choice. Personally i would go with a shorty style manifold and a turbo like the T3 Super 60 .63ar or a T3/T04b 50trim. There are a lot of great little turbos out there if you take the time to look around...

 

Honestly, to me it sounds like you need to get a new car. You want low end torque and only rev between 2.5-5? Thats not what Hondas do and you're most likely just going to be disappointed.

 

^^x2

If you want power from your honda, you'll have to up the revs a little....unlike a Subie or a Domestic car, we have less displacement, but attempt to make up for that with the additional rpms up top...

 

JRSC

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by eg:R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">JRSC </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks for the opinion without any reasoning...maybe you should read some of the thread ahead of your awesome post...specifically this:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for a JRSC, it may spool instantly, but you have to consider the down side. Occationally the belt may break or come off, and the overall lack of power. An 18g turbo kit w/o intercooler will have lower IAT's at a given PSI than a JRSC, and therefore make a bit more HP. Now you can always upgrade a turbo kit, but on a Honda, you're pretty much stuck with your JRSC (from a cost/feasability standpoint).</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Schister66 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're looking for quick spool AND a turbo that wont die off until redline (or close to it), then you need to consider your manifold choice. Personally i would go with a shorty style manifold and a turbo like the T3 Super 60 .63ar or a T3/T04b 50trim. There are a lot of great little turbos out there if you take the time to look around...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't care if the turbo pitters out before redline. I would like to taper off the boost anyway. Thanks for your other suggestions, though. I'll go look into it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93CX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honestly, to me it sounds like you need to get a new car. You want low end torque and only rev between 2.5-5? Thats not what Hondas do and you're most likely just going to be disappointed. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I try not to rev above 5k on the street because that tends to be loud and obnoxious. Sometimes I go above that on my recreational drives, but not often.
Sounds to me like you are recommending the SC.
"It feels like a bigger engine"

 

You guys act like there are no small engines with turbos that add low end/midrange power without having terrible traction issues. They are called every 4 cylinder turbo'd VW and Saab.....

Anyway, JRSC is probably your best bet because its a bit cheaper and easier to install than a turbo. If you want to go turbo I'd go with a 45 trim T3 or maybe even a T25. Model your turbo setup like most OEM companies do, and you will probably be pleased with the end result.

 

Here's some reasoning. It's fairly easy to upgrade a JRSC, and the belts work fine if they are properly tensioned. Making a blanket statement like the 18g will have cooler IAT's than an M62 also isn't correct, especially at pressure ratios down around 1.3-1.4 and around 10-15 lbs/min of boost (where the OP will be driving it), where the M62 has a nice sweet spot, but well below the peak efficiency of the 18g compressor. No disrespect to HiProfile intended, but I've built several turbo and JRSC setups and measured the IAT's with a bead-wire sensor. An M62 at a 1.4 PR moving 10-20 lbs/min of air is pretty efficient, and with about $1300 of bolt-on intercooler, the IAT's will be just a few degrees above ambient.

I can see the heat and belt argument if you want to make 300 WHP with one, but for making just north of 200 WHP it really isn't an issue.

 

RMC:

Do you know if that LHT intercooler is helpful at increasing reliability or power at stock boost levels on the JRSC?