t 38mm WG w/ GT35R?
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From: seattle area, washington, usa
Re: (iNERtIA)
ramhorns tend to creep alot due to the fact that the turbo so prioritised over the wg flange, buddie of my tried a 38 on his built gsr, mini ram, sc61, tuned on gate a 10psi and by 7600 it was creeping 19 he ended up doing dual 38s to cure the issuse
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From: Brisbane Australia, Australia
I think your gonna have problems with the 38mm.
I have a GT3037S on my stock ITR and had creep with an RLD ramhorn and Tial 38mm at 9psi. I have now switched to a Synapse 50mm and still get a little creep, but its much better.
If your gonna run a big turbo at low boost you'll need a large WG. Even that can only take you so far as the design of your manifold. Big turbo/low boost you really need a WG prioritised manifold.
I have a GT3037S on my stock ITR and had creep with an RLD ramhorn and Tial 38mm at 9psi. I have now switched to a Synapse 50mm and still get a little creep, but its much better.
If your gonna run a big turbo at low boost you'll need a large WG. Even that can only take you so far as the design of your manifold. Big turbo/low boost you really need a WG prioritised manifold.
Re: (boosted k20)
I am running a peakboost manifold with a GT35R and when I had my 38mm Tial we were creeping real bad. I swapped out for a Tial 44mm with 1.75 dumptube piping and have not had a problem since.
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BCICAN
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: (cjordan)
I'd be surprised if you don't have problems with the small 38mm. I had the exact same problem cjordan described. After I switched to the 44mm the problem was instantly gone and has never returned. I'm sure it's obvious, but make sure you using the 1.75" dumptube. If you try to reuse the same dumptube then the problem will persist.
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
would it help if i run a 38-44mm adaptor and run 44mil WG? or i need to hack off the WG flange for a bigger one as well? i get about 1lb creep pass 7k on my t3/t4 at the moment.
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: (iNERtIA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iNERtIA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would it help if i run a 38-44mm adaptor and run 44mil WG? or i need to hack off the WG flange for a bigger one as well? i get about 1lb creep pass 7k on my t3/t4 at the moment. </TD></TR></TABLE>
No that will not do anything. You need the hole in the manifold to be bigger than the 38mm flange. You need the bigger diameter dumptube as well. Is not necessarily the "wastegate" it simply the size of the holes....get rid of ALL the areas that are 38mm.
No that will not do anything. You need the hole in the manifold to be bigger than the 38mm flange. You need the bigger diameter dumptube as well. Is not necessarily the "wastegate" it simply the size of the holes....get rid of ALL the areas that are 38mm.
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Re: (Dunc)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No that will not do anything. You need the hole in the manifold to be bigger than the 38mm flange. You need the bigger diameter dumptube as well. Is not necessarily the "wastegate" it simply the size of the holes....get rid of ALL the areas that are 38mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats not totally accurate... the bigger valve area in the larger gate will allow for more potential flow and result in lower pressures in that area of the manifold, even behind a 38mm flanged hole. creating a lower pressure route for the exhaust gases is what you want and what you will be doing, although your not going to do that as well as you will have if you changed the proper flange on the manifold.
edit: I am using one of these because I am not able to have mine rewelded at this time. I am using the adapter, 44mm tial, and a slightly larger turbo... so we shall see if it will hold the spring pressure now which it would not before with the 38mm and 60-1.
No that will not do anything. You need the hole in the manifold to be bigger than the 38mm flange. You need the bigger diameter dumptube as well. Is not necessarily the "wastegate" it simply the size of the holes....get rid of ALL the areas that are 38mm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
thats not totally accurate... the bigger valve area in the larger gate will allow for more potential flow and result in lower pressures in that area of the manifold, even behind a 38mm flanged hole. creating a lower pressure route for the exhaust gases is what you want and what you will be doing, although your not going to do that as well as you will have if you changed the proper flange on the manifold.
edit: I am using one of these because I am not able to have mine rewelded at this time. I am using the adapter, 44mm tial, and a slightly larger turbo... so we shall see if it will hold the spring pressure now which it would not before with the 38mm and 60-1.
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: (twkdCD595)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by twkdCD595 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thats not totally accurate... the bigger valve area in the larger gate will allow for more potential flow and result in lower pressures in that area of the manifold, even behind a 38mm flanged hole. creating a lower pressure route for the exhaust gases is what you want and what you will be doing, although your not going to do that as well as you will have if you changed the proper flange on the manifold.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're really not doing it at all. I understand what you're saying about the lower pressures and such, but in the end all that matters is size of the hole. The 38 to 44mm adapter flange has the hole opening the size of a 38, but then expands to the 44. It doesn't matter where the restriction is in the system, (whether on the manifold, at the inlet of the gate, at the outlet of the gate, or in the size of the dumptube) the result will be the same. The restriction is still present, so there will be no change.
I'm just speaking from experience because I have the 60-1 and the 38mm was too small for the ramhorn. I got a 44mm put on (with the right flange), however I reflanged the dumptube and used the old 38mm sized dumptube. The larger wastegate had zero affect on fixing the problem. As soon as I eliminated the last restriction (I replaced the 38mm pipe with 44mm sized pipe) the problem vanished.
You're really not doing it at all. I understand what you're saying about the lower pressures and such, but in the end all that matters is size of the hole. The 38 to 44mm adapter flange has the hole opening the size of a 38, but then expands to the 44. It doesn't matter where the restriction is in the system, (whether on the manifold, at the inlet of the gate, at the outlet of the gate, or in the size of the dumptube) the result will be the same. The restriction is still present, so there will be no change.
I'm just speaking from experience because I have the 60-1 and the 38mm was too small for the ramhorn. I got a 44mm put on (with the right flange), however I reflanged the dumptube and used the old 38mm sized dumptube. The larger wastegate had zero affect on fixing the problem. As soon as I eliminated the last restriction (I replaced the 38mm pipe with 44mm sized pipe) the problem vanished.
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Re: (Dunc)
actually its he surface area thats the problem. technically a 38MM hole is more then enough to regulate boost on almost any turbo. using the adapter with the 44mm still works *better* then a 38 would just not quite as well as a straight 44MM flange.
take off your wastegate completely and tell me how much boost you can make with a 38MM hole in your manifold, then come tell me it doesnt have everything to do with surface area of the valve and flow of the WG as opposed to the size of the hole.
take off your wastegate completely and tell me how much boost you can make with a 38MM hole in your manifold, then come tell me it doesnt have everything to do with surface area of the valve and flow of the WG as opposed to the size of the hole.
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Re: (CoreyR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">actually its he surface area thats the problem. technically a 38MM hole is more then enough to regulate boost on almost any turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You realize that surface area and "size" of the hole are the same thing right? What technically is supposed to work doesn't always work in real life. All I know is that the 38mm hole (no matter where it is located since the air still needs to get through it somewhere) is not big enough for a 35R sized turbo on a ramhorn. If the 38mm is technically good enough for almost any turbo, then why are people wasting their money on the 44's? There is a reason why basically no company offers that flange option with a ramhorn.....it doesn't work in reality.
EDIT: Think of this example. Say the drain in your backyard is backing up and the yard is being flooded. Well you obviously think, hey make the hole bigger right? Well what happens to the water once the new larger drain is filled up and backing up because the hole over at the street is still small? You still get flooding.
And vice versa, if you open the hole at the street...well you still have flooding because the drain isn't big enough to let the water into the tubing fast enough. So in the end you can't just fix one side of the problem, you have to make the hole pipe (drain to street) bigger to flow more water. Hopefully that was somewhat understanable.
Modified by Dunc at 2:58 PM 2/12/2008
You realize that surface area and "size" of the hole are the same thing right? What technically is supposed to work doesn't always work in real life. All I know is that the 38mm hole (no matter where it is located since the air still needs to get through it somewhere) is not big enough for a 35R sized turbo on a ramhorn. If the 38mm is technically good enough for almost any turbo, then why are people wasting their money on the 44's? There is a reason why basically no company offers that flange option with a ramhorn.....it doesn't work in reality.
EDIT: Think of this example. Say the drain in your backyard is backing up and the yard is being flooded. Well you obviously think, hey make the hole bigger right? Well what happens to the water once the new larger drain is filled up and backing up because the hole over at the street is still small? You still get flooding.
And vice versa, if you open the hole at the street...well you still have flooding because the drain isn't big enough to let the water into the tubing fast enough. So in the end you can't just fix one side of the problem, you have to make the hole pipe (drain to street) bigger to flow more water. Hopefully that was somewhat understanable.
Modified by Dunc at 2:58 PM 2/12/2008
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Re: (Dunc)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dunc »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You realize that surface area and "size" of the hole are the same thing right? What technically is supposed to work doesn't always work in real life. All I know is that the 38mm hole (no matter where it is located since the air still needs to get through it somewhere) is not big enough for a 35R sized turbo on a ramhorn. If the 38mm is technically good enough for almost any turbo, then why are people wasting their money on the 44's? There is a reason why basically no company offers that flange option with a ramhorn.....it doesn't work in reality.
EDIT: Think of this example. Say the drain in your backyard is backing up and the yard is being flooded. Well you obviously think, hey make the hole bigger right? Well what happens to the water once the new larger drain is filled up and backing up because the hole over at the street is still small? You still get flooding.
And vice versa, if you open the hole at the street...well you still have flooding because the drain isn't big enough to let the water into the tubing fast enough. So in the end you can't just fix one side of the problem, you have to make the hole pipe (drain to street) bigger to flow more water. Hopefully that was somewhat understanable.</TD></TR></TABLE>
youre missing the point. the valve is still a flow restriction because the exhaust gas has to go around it (flat valve surface) to get out of the WG. if theres no WG, i promise you a 38MM exhaust leak pre turbo is more then likely going to prevent it from making any boost. a turbine wheel is a restriction so therefore the exhuast is going to take the path of least resistence (the hole), which is why a bigger valve will regulate boost better.
You realize that surface area and "size" of the hole are the same thing right? What technically is supposed to work doesn't always work in real life. All I know is that the 38mm hole (no matter where it is located since the air still needs to get through it somewhere) is not big enough for a 35R sized turbo on a ramhorn. If the 38mm is technically good enough for almost any turbo, then why are people wasting their money on the 44's? There is a reason why basically no company offers that flange option with a ramhorn.....it doesn't work in reality.
EDIT: Think of this example. Say the drain in your backyard is backing up and the yard is being flooded. Well you obviously think, hey make the hole bigger right? Well what happens to the water once the new larger drain is filled up and backing up because the hole over at the street is still small? You still get flooding.
And vice versa, if you open the hole at the street...well you still have flooding because the drain isn't big enough to let the water into the tubing fast enough. So in the end you can't just fix one side of the problem, you have to make the hole pipe (drain to street) bigger to flow more water. Hopefully that was somewhat understanable.</TD></TR></TABLE>
youre missing the point. the valve is still a flow restriction because the exhaust gas has to go around it (flat valve surface) to get out of the WG. if theres no WG, i promise you a 38MM exhaust leak pre turbo is more then likely going to prevent it from making any boost. a turbine wheel is a restriction so therefore the exhuast is going to take the path of least resistence (the hole), which is why a bigger valve will regulate boost better.
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: (CoreyR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CoreyR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">youre missing the point. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Then why (as stated above) did the 44 I put on with the old 38mm dumptube have no affect on the boost creep? It was simple: the diameter of the dumptube was too small as well. I know if you take the wastegate completely off then you won't boost...but that isn't applicable here.
We agree with each other that the bigger valve will regulate boost better. All I'm saying is that the whole system (manifold to the dumptube outlet) needs to be the size of the 44mm gate. If you have the 38mm hole anywhere in there, it's just not going to work out. The air flow will get hung up at the point where there is a 38mm hole. Try it and then you'll agree...or just search for all the other people having the exact same problem and then they reflange and poof it's gone? I just took it another step with my setup and demonstrated that the hole needs to be completely replaced.
twkdCD595 even stated that he hadn't tried it out yet but he was going to. I already have gone down that road and it didn't work. I'm definitely curious to see how things turn out for him.
Then why (as stated above) did the 44 I put on with the old 38mm dumptube have no affect on the boost creep? It was simple: the diameter of the dumptube was too small as well. I know if you take the wastegate completely off then you won't boost...but that isn't applicable here.
We agree with each other that the bigger valve will regulate boost better. All I'm saying is that the whole system (manifold to the dumptube outlet) needs to be the size of the 44mm gate. If you have the 38mm hole anywhere in there, it's just not going to work out. The air flow will get hung up at the point where there is a 38mm hole. Try it and then you'll agree...or just search for all the other people having the exact same problem and then they reflange and poof it's gone? I just took it another step with my setup and demonstrated that the hole needs to be completely replaced.
twkdCD595 even stated that he hadn't tried it out yet but he was going to. I already have gone down that road and it didn't work. I'm definitely curious to see how things turn out for him.
Re: (iNERtIA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iNERtIA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would it help if i run a 38-44mm adaptor and run 44mil WG? or i need to hack off the WG flange for a bigger one as well? i get about 1lb creep pass 7k on my t3/t4 at the moment. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Running the adapter would help, but wouldn't be as efficient as enlarging the whole and running a 44mm wastegate.
Running the adapter would help, but wouldn't be as efficient as enlarging the whole and running a 44mm wastegate.
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From: huber heights, oh, usa
Re: (Kyle@KR-TFab)
Boy this is great news, My build is very close to being tuned and I am running a Peakboost Ramhorn 38mm tial and 3076R 63A/R B16A2 9:1 comp looking for 400whp+ on E85/pump. I heard that I shouldnt have any problems @ 12-15psi+ 
The reweld on the manifold isnt an option eighther cause it was coated
The reweld on the manifold isnt an option eighther cause it was coated
BCICAN
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: (drpoomanchu)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by drpoomanchu »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Boy this is great news, My build is very close to being tuned and I am running a Peakboost Ramhorn 38mm tial and 3076R 63A/R B16A2 9:1 comp looking for 400whp+ on E85/pump. I heard that I shouldnt have any problems @ 12-15psi+
The reweld on the manifold isnt an option eighther cause it was coated </TD></TR></TABLE>
Only time will tell. Let us know in here if it does or doesn't work for you.
EDIT: Whoa you're from huber heights? I'm originally from Dayton, nice to see another local around here.
The reweld on the manifold isnt an option eighther cause it was coated
</TD></TR></TABLE>Only time will tell. Let us know in here if it does or doesn't work for you.
EDIT: Whoa you're from huber heights? I'm originally from Dayton, nice to see another local around here.
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From: USA
Re: (Dunc)
we shall see, I am going to try it... although I am not running the exact turbo in question here. I understand what your saying, agian I am just indicating that running the 44mm on a 38mm adapter is better than a straight 38mm setup (as I outline in my point initally).
mine actually did hold boost with the 38mm setup originally... until I ditched my 2 1/2" exhaust and ran open 3" dp for a short time (full 3" back now). the added backpressure of that size exhaust was a crutch though in that situation I soon discovered. this was on a 7.5 psi base spring pressure I believe at that time, this time its a 13psi spring cause I dont plan to run as low of boost numbers.
time will tell, I hope the 44mm can keep up now... or else I will be having another manifold done...
mine actually did hold boost with the 38mm setup originally... until I ditched my 2 1/2" exhaust and ran open 3" dp for a short time (full 3" back now). the added backpressure of that size exhaust was a crutch though in that situation I soon discovered. this was on a 7.5 psi base spring pressure I believe at that time, this time its a 13psi spring cause I dont plan to run as low of boost numbers.
time will tell, I hope the 44mm can keep up now... or else I will be having another manifold done...
Re: (twkdCD595)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by twkdCD595 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I understand what your saying, agian I am just indicating that running the 44mm on a 38mm adapter is better than a straight 38mm setup (as I outline in my point initally).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct
Thread Starter
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
thanks for the info's. i really dont wanna hack up my manifold. maybe ill try the 38mm and see how much it creeps on 5psi spring.
do u guys have any clearance issues with ramhorns+ 44mm adaptor/WG?
do u guys have any clearance issues with ramhorns+ 44mm adaptor/WG?
BCICAN
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From: Cincinnati, OH
Re: (iNERtIA)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by twkdCD595 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">we shall see, I am going to try it... </TD></TR></TABLE>
When will you be testing this?
Also, has anyone else already done this? By this, I mean had a 38 then used a 44....the catch is you either used an adapter with the gate or you continued to use the 38mm sized dumptube.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iNERtIA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the info's. i really dont wanna hack up my manifold. maybe ill try the 38mm and see how much it creeps on 5psi spring.
do u guys have any clearance issues with ramhorns+ 44mm adaptor/WG?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have a ramhorn with the 44 and I have zero clearance issues....and that is with a full-sized radiator too. None of that weaksauce half-sized stuff
When will you be testing this?
Also, has anyone else already done this? By this, I mean had a 38 then used a 44....the catch is you either used an adapter with the gate or you continued to use the 38mm sized dumptube.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iNERtIA »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the info's. i really dont wanna hack up my manifold. maybe ill try the 38mm and see how much it creeps on 5psi spring.
do u guys have any clearance issues with ramhorns+ 44mm adaptor/WG?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have a ramhorn with the 44 and I have zero clearance issues....and that is with a full-sized radiator too. None of that weaksauce half-sized stuff
