As the power of the "Broke-Side" of the Force draws me closer, I was hoping to lay out a plan for aiding my addiction. The mid-term goal is obtaining a comp license that would allow me to run w/ most any group with a minimum of effort/expenditure (minimum not in a short-cut way, but in a non-redundant way).

1. It seems an SCCA license is almost universally accepted (with certain additional administrative and fee requrements). So, this would be the best license, no? I know there is a two school requirement. I believe a novice permit must be obtained to get to the schools. I realize there is a log book that comes with that permit.

2. Does the novice permit need to be held for a specified period of time and/or is there any real use for it?

3. Is there any requirement as to that log book before attending a comp school (i.e., specified number of events)?

4. Should the comp schools be attended at a generally specific time (i.e., first after moving to "advanced" group, second after X amount of improvement/# of events in "advanced", etc.)?

5. Do the events have to be run w/ any particular sanctioning group (i.e., does SCCA do HPDEs or are others sufficient)?

6. Is it appropriate to have one "group" use a log book from another (i.e., do you need multiple log books if you run events w/ NASA, PCA, etc. and/or need to fill up your SCCA log book)?

7. Is there a more beneficial timeframe to complete these steps in (incl. how many events should be req'd, on avg.)?

8. Any additional information that anyone may deem useful for someone beginning in the process?

I know some of this has been covered back around the first of the year, but me searches were as unsatisfying as my review of the SCCA and NASA sites. Hopefully, there are others recently bitten by the go-fast bug that have these same questions... Even though it's a ways off, it's never too early to start planning!

 

I too have the same concerns.

 

me three

 

I'm included in this group...I can't wait until next year. Oh, and VIR later this year.

 

Yes. That is the path I chose. The logbook stays with you until you fufill your novice requirements and get the regional license.

Only as long as it takes to complete all the required events (2 schools, 2 regionals).

Nope. You pay your money and you go to school.

There is no requirement. However, several Advanced drivers from NASA's HPDE program have been granted waivers for their 2nd SCCA comp school (Warren and Pat). I would say you should at least be an advacned intermediate, otherwise you risk not passing the comp school.

Yes. To get the SCCA regional license, you must complete 2 SCCA approved comp schools (all are run by SCCA regionas, with the exception of schools like Barber, Bondurant, etc). And two SCCA regionals.

All groups issue their own logbooks. Remember - beyond the novice license, there is no logbook for drivers. There is a logbook for cars - it will list events the car has entered, damage from those events, etc. It does not record anything about the driver.

Not really. But there is a maximum timeframe for the SCCA novice permit (it expires after two years I think). I would say take a year to do autocross and HPDE-type events, then get the license the following year.

The DC region of the SCCA typically runs two comp schools a year. One near Halloween and one in early Spring. It works very well to do HPDEs for a season, finish that season with the Fall comp school. Prep your car more over the winter. Then do the Spring comp school. That will give you a provisional liciense. Then do your two regionals. Then the rest of that season is free to race with SCCA (and NASA and others if you do the paperwork).

 

personally i think NASA is the way to go....i don't want to have to worry bout the guy behind me not caring about his car and deciding to put a fender up my ****!! (SCCA) you gotta be rich to play there....

i did 4 nasa HPDE's
first one was beginner moved up to intermediate second day (summit point)
second intermediate (vir full)
third advanced (cmp)
fourth advanced/observation (summit point)

but i also did
vir full course with
speedtrials two times
car guys two times

gingerman (track was great but 3 corner workers don't cut it)
cgi

so that is 9 events since october of 2001

my first race was june 29 2002....

but i do not believe that there should be a set number of events you must drive before they allow you to be observed...

racing is in the head and the blood.....there are some who have driven HPDE's for years who could never race!!! some folks just don't like to have to take a different line...me personally the more lines (DRIVING LINES) at a given track gives me the upper hand when racing....

i don't want to race with someone who does not care about there car or the safety of those around him or her.....safety should be number one ALWAYS and this is why i like nasa....my RACE CAR is my ONLY CAR!!!!!!!! and i started 10th and finished 3rd on sunday.....i trailered my car only for the reason that if engine went axel broke etc i would have a way home....should cover all your bases!! other wise i would have driven it to the track....RACED the kaa....drove home....like jack.....but i will guarentee that i am the only ONE AT SUMMIT POINT WHO RACE that will drive their car to work everyday!!! jack don't do that!! mine is a true daily driver!!!

so....nasa requires 4 hpde's before you can be observed and get your provisional licence....but the more you are on track the more your knowledge of your car and your skills is enhanced!!!! so get on track ASAP!!!!!!!!!and as much as possible!!!

 

The SCCA does not hold HPDE events. Any schmuck with enough money to fund a competition prepped car can go to an SCCA school and theoretically get a license. Some regions are better about regulating who they give the licenses to but others are not. The SCCA has no real "farm system" like NASA does. The SCCA path is Solo II ---> Solo I ---> Comp School ---> Club Racing. There is no intermediary between autocross competition and track competition (since Solo I's are Time Trials).

I would say your best bet is to do the HPDE thing for a while and then get a license. SCCA's licenses are accepted by EMRA and NASA but the SCCA accepts neither.

 

Here's another suggestion for a timetable: Crew for someone else at the spring SCCA school. Crew for them the rest of the season while you prepare your car and do HPDE type events, then attend the fall SCCA school yourself. You will learn so much and know so many people that you will be way ahead of the game when you finally do the school yourself.

If you show up at the SCCA school and you've never been to a SCCA event you might just get a little overwhelmed by it all. To say that the SCCA is a little more bureaucratic than NASA is kind of an understatement.

This link gives you the offical guide to getting a SCCA comp license:

http://www.scca.org/amateur/club_racing/guide.html

Joel

 

well I'm glad I picked the right path to take

NASA , SCCA

 

I would talk with more people before making this determination (perhaps people who have actually raced with the SCCA or done their comp school).

Not bashing NASA but I sure as sh*t don't get the SCCA bashing from folks who have never raced with them.

 

I'm scheduled to do the NASA comp school next month at CMP. Even if I pass, I will most likely NOT race until VIR North. I want to at least drive CMS and CMP (again) before entering a wheel-to-wheel situation (ECHC). I can't say how excited I am about the opportunity to share in this fun with such a great group of people

1. Speedtrial VIR Full HPDE 12/2001 (Novice)

2. NASA VIR Full HPDE 02/2002 (Intermediate)

3. Speedtrial VIR Full HPDE 02/2002 (Intermediate)

4. NASA CMP HPDE 04/2002 (Intermediate)

5. BSR FATT @ Summit Point 05/2002 (Advanced/Group II Solo)

6. ITR Expo HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway 05/2002 (Advanced)

7. NASA Summit Point HPDE 06/2002 (Advanced)

8. NASA Jefferson Circuit HPDE 06/2002 (Advanced)


[Modified by Jason Franza, 11:54 AM 7/2/2002]

 

In regards to the SCCA comp schools. Many regions run a 3 day weekend super school. CalClub and SFR are two clubs that do so. I entered the SFR super school. It's getting the 2 schools in one big weekend!

When running with many clubs, please make sure your can can pass all clubs specs. Just off the top of my head, NASA & SCCA have different window net rules.

 

If you get an SCCA Comp license, you need to race a minimum number of races every year to maintain your SCCA Comp license, so if you are planning to only race in NASA, then you should just get a NASA Comp license.

BTW, SCCA Solo 1 is like NASA's HPDE. The only difference is that they time the sessions. It's the same in wherein you drive around in your sessions like HPDE. It is not wheel-to-wheel racing. Many Clubs in CA have this format like TCRA and others.

Best path is to choose either SCCA or NASA and stick with either for awhile.

 

Have you ever raced with SCCA? Ever attended one of their competition schools? Ever attended one of their regionals? Or one of their nationals?

If not, I suggest you reserve judgement until such time that you have.

Yes, SCCA events appear to have more metal-to-metal. However, the fields are usually much larger and the racing much closer than other clubs. In the MARRS, IT groups typically get their own run groups (or share with one other group). That's 100+ IT cars per weekend (and then you also have the SRX-7s and the SMs). How many HC/PS cars were at the last NASA event?

None of this is to put down the efforts of NASA - they have a fine road race program and I hope to see it grow. But, until such time that SCCA and NASA have similar levels of competition and field sizes, blanket statements about the quality of either program are pretty much meaningless.

And currently, SCCA is the ONLY sanctioning body that has national level competition. NASA, EMRA, etc do not have anything remotely close to the RunOffs.


[Modified by Crack Monkey, 11:16 AM 7/2/2002]

 

and how big are the tracks that scca runs on?

 

That is absolutely not true. SCCA Solo I is a competition whereas HPDE's are driver schools. When was the last time you had an instructor riding with you in an SCCA Solo I event? How often do you have classroom instruction at a Solo I? If I remember correctly Solo I practice sessions are open-passing as well. Also - take your streetcar and helmet to an SCCA Solo I and see if they let you run. Unless you bring at least a rollbar, driver's suit and gloves you aren't getting out on track.

This is not intended to bash the SCCA. I am just pointing out the fact that the SCCA lacks the middle stepping stones I FEEL are beneficial to someone becoming a decent race driver. The reason NASA has a minimum event requirment is so that you are adequately comfortable in your car and with open passing. The SCCA will take someone with NO prior experience other than highway driving and barring any disasters, give them a license at the end of a 2 day school, waiving the 2nd school requirement. Do you really think that person is ready to race? I for one don't. I know someone who had no prior experience, got his license at the first school and 1 year later will tell you he probably has no business being in a race car. NASA's HPDE program fills the void where autocrossing stops and Solo I begins.

EDIT: And for the record I have spent the past 27 years of my life growing up around SCCA regional, national and pro racing. My father is a 32 year member and I have had my own membership for the past 15 years. Both my father and myself were national tech inspectors at one time and both of us are Safety Stewards.

 

I think you "defense" of the SCCA just served to make his point.

Picking the "right path to take" has an implied "for myself" at the end of it. Your talk of 100+ car fields and national level competition are not things that appeal to a lot of people. While I understand that these might be good things for many SCCA drivers, they're also the same reasons why others shy away.

I see your point... many (most?) people here know nothing about SCCA. That seems almost by design sometimes. By the time you figure out what SCCA is all about you've already attended comp schools and have raced a season. It starts with things so small as having to pay to see the rules you have to follow.

Anyway, I'm obviously not speaking from experience and am just as confused about this whole process as many others seem to be here.

 

From what I have seen, there are people in both SCCA and NASA who don't worry about their car and don't care about their fellow competitors. Wasn't there almost a dozen posts about a certain driver this weekend in a tiny Honda product? And about "gotta be rich," how many big rigs or huge enclosed trailers towed by $45K dualies (no offense to NASACHRIS ) were there at the PARRC race weekend?

There are also a few NASA racers that I would think twice about before going side-by-side through a turn.

As Crack Monkey says, SCCA has more race groups with bigger fields. You are going to hear about idiots more with SCCA because it's a bigger organization. But I honestly think the idiots-per-capita ratio is about the same between both groups.

However, I do think NASA's licensing process is much more, um, rigourous compared to the SCCA's. At the SCCA school I did last year I was amazed at how many people taking it had NEVER been on a racetrack. The chief steward asked for people to raise their hand if they had never been on track, and easily 1/3 of 50-60 drivers raised their hands. The same people I would be sharing the track with who would be immediately put out on track to "solo."

Pat

 

Same tracks!!!

Edit: Want to clarify that this isn't a bash of NASA to which I am grateful for a number of things. But the anti-SCCA sentiment is quite frustrating as I have been on track with these folks several times now and whereas all racing groups (as I think Pat and Al said) have those that are a bit cavalier in their behavior - it should not be a reflection of the organization as a whole. As for attitude, I watched as 4 competitors helped one guy get his car back together for a race that day and he ended up winning - much to the happiness of all involved (even though some were racing against him).

Edit 2: I think to argue that the SCCA requires full safety equipment before hitting the track and that they put their instructors in corner buckets instead of the passenger seat is a weak knock against them. I learned a ton from Tom Fowler, Fowler Sr., Chuck Reynolds and Tim Meek (our group of 6 students' instructors) in my SCCA Comp School and they never spent a moment in my car (much to their delight I am sure ). For the record, at my school, we did have classroom, we did have over 230 entrants, we did have 4 practice starts, 2 races, 3 days of practices/qualifying/races and from my memory, there was one rolled car and maybe 3 or 4 minor incidents (fender benders). I have seen much worse outcomes in HPDEs that have point-bys on the straights and no timing and were only 2 days opposed to 3.



[Modified by phat-S, 3:13 PM 7/2/2002]

 

I did not mean to upset people by asking that question of how big are the tracks. I have just started to get involved in nasa and scca. I think I was thinking at the time was autocross. those tracks are in parking lots at least I think so and thats what I was thinking about.

 

First, a thanks to all who are responding - great stuff

Second, w/o entering the fray on that one, I think there is very good reason to be a 100% NASA supporter here: by putting on a developing series, geared to 90% of the cars owned on this board, giving newly developing racers a chance to progress w/ more recognition (not finishing 27th in the field your first time out would be nice), and to some degree sheltering new racers from the attitudes and tactics of hardened veterans - NASA deserves all the praise possible. Additionally, it seems they are one of/the best training ground. Still, if you don't own a car that nicely fits into a series or you want to be able to run more events or in more competitive situations SCCA seems inevitable. Okay, exiting the fray...

All these replies have put a few more questions into my head:

9) Buying safety stuff b/f a school is necessary - but, to clarify, you do need a fully prepped car w/ all the goodies for your first comp school? (unclear from Al's reply that you could prep the car more over winter b/n schools)

10) How does one get involved w/ crewing? It sounds like an excellent idea... but a bit daunting. Any advice on where to begin?

*edit - $125,000 of education and I still can't spell *


[Modified by HippoSleek, 8:29 PM 7/2/2002]

 

I don't know if that comment was directed at me or not but on the chance that it was I thought I'd better reply. My comments were in regard to the guy saying that a Solo I and an HPDE were the same thing with the exception of the timing portion. I never said anything regarding the Comp schools. NASA requires the same equipment be in place at them as the SCCA does and the instructors are in the buckets for both organizations.

All I said is that I FEEL there needs to be a step between autocrossing and on-track competition. The SCCA simply DOES NOT HAVE that step. NASA does.

To do a comp school with either NASA or the SCCA you need a full competition prepared car with the complete assortment of required driver safety gear.

 

Another point:
If the SCCA licensing requirements are so lacking, why does EVERY other sanctioning body in the US accept SCCA regional licenses?

I've seen people get waivers for the second comp school. But they were all experienced drivers (Warren, Pat, etc).

I've also seen total newbs (and even experienced drivers) fail the comp schools.

Morons will occasionally fall through the cracks of all the major sanctioning bodies.

And a question:
How does NASA handle the "observation" for cars that do not have a similar speed student in another car? Example - if someone shows up in an ITC Civic. Just curious, as all the people I know have done the observation with a similar car (ITRs, GSRs, etc). And of course, the opposite as well - if I show up for observation in a C5R or some other big-bore giant.

 

Because the SCCA is the LARGEST sanctioning body for club/amateur racing in the U.S. The smaller groups like NASA and EMRA need to pull from the SCCA base for their participants. If they didn't make it so that SCCA drivers could join right in then they would not have enough people.


So Al, Adam and all the other's who are defending the SCCA:

What does the SCCA offer as a stepping stone to get a driver's feet wet in on-track driving?

Drew - Who is VERY pro-SCCA and always has been

 

I've met several people on boards like this. I've invited them up to the track to "check it out". Not really to crew, just to let them see what it is all about. Just offer your services or express an interest. Most racers I know would be happy to introduce you to racing.