13MM Sway Bar??
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From: CO, USA
13MM Sway Bar??
so i was wondering if someone could possibily tell me how it would feel to just have a single 13MM rear swaybar on a 99 Civic Hatch. I know it is going to oversteer but how much will it be a scary car to drive after i do the mod.
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From: Neverland Ranch
13mm? the stock gsr sway bar is 14mm and my JDM ITR rear sway bar is 23mm. if your anticipating a 13mm sway bar to be extremely stiff your misunderstanding. if there is currently no swaybar, the "13mm" will act to "level" the body in a cornering situation by flexing laterally and "lifting" the inside wheel and "dropping" the outside wheel. 13mm is not going to be nearly stiff enough to notice.
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From: 813, FL, Unted States
Re: 13MM Sway Bar?? (BIG T)
it all depends on the rest of your suspnsion setup how much it will oversteer.
a 13mm rear sway will definately not make your car "scary" and you will most likely still understeer more than anything.
a 13mm rear sway will definately not make your car "scary" and you will most likely still understeer more than anything.
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From: CA, United States
run the 13mm rear sway bro, it makes that much of a difference. Its not a 19mm+ sway bar, but coming from not having one it makes it a very good inexpensive mod. Out of all of the mods i've done adding a 14mm rear sway was the best thing i've done. It didnt cost me much and helped the car perform alot better. Going through corners you can def. feel the car become more stable/stiff.
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From: Stuck Behind a Buick WA
Re: (bmoua)
ya ive put a otn of money into my car, and without a doubt spending $50 on Si rear swaybar setup was my favortite mod. It makes the car handle a lot better. You will notice the rear end will turn in easier. ( if that makes sense ) Definatly get one 
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Re: (BIG T)
i ran the numbers a while back and IIRC, with a gustimated motion ratio, the 13mm rear bar was something in the range of a 40lb/in wheel rate increase- not a whole lot, but with an otherwise stock suspension it makes a ton of difference. even with no front bar the stock setup is prone to understeer and the 13mm bar is mild enough to not make an improvement without making hte car twitchy or hard to manage.
this is all assuming matched tires and no funky alignment issues
this is all assuming matched tires and no funky alignment issues
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From: Peterborough, ON, Canada
Re: (Voyage34)
I ran a 13mm bar on my EK a few years ago, and it was a noticable and decent improvement over stock (none). The ITR bar is a bit much on the street, if you ever had to make a panic swerve on less than perfect roads. The 13mm bar is cheap and easy to find as well with no need to run subframe mounts. Keep in mind the del sol twin cam has a 15mm and GSR and integra sedans have 14mm. Just to open up your options. Otherwise there will be no danger in running the 13mm bar, and you car will still understeer, but feel should feel much more neutral. Go for it!
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From: Midlothian, Virginia, United States
Re: 13MM Sway Bar?? (MilanoCivic97)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MilanoCivic97 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it all depends on the rest of your suspnsion setup how much it will oversteer.
a 13mm rear sway will definately not make your car "scary" and you will most likely still understeer more than anything.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That basically sums it up. Your car will feel more balanced if anything. The 13mm is not really enough to make a huge difference in stiffness, but you will achieve some sort of balance considering you had nothing back there to begin with.
a 13mm rear sway will definately not make your car "scary" and you will most likely still understeer more than anything.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That basically sums it up. Your car will feel more balanced if anything. The 13mm is not really enough to make a huge difference in stiffness, but you will achieve some sort of balance considering you had nothing back there to begin with.
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From: Sofia, Bulgaria
Re: 13MM Sway Bar?? (.PLUMMM)
I'd backup b18LS here and add that a 13mm rear bar CAN be quite scary, even with a 19mm front one (my case) It all depends on the driving habits. I could go into turn-in oversteer without a rear bar and an 18mm front one and trust me, when I added my 14mm rear bar, I felt a bit scared.
Needless to say that i loved it and quickly adopted my driving. But for some people, especially people NOT inclined to race driving it can be scary and dangerous. Other than that, just put it on and enjoy
Needless to say that i loved it and quickly adopted my driving. But for some people, especially people NOT inclined to race driving it can be scary and dangerous. Other than that, just put it on and enjoy
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From: strathcedar, nsw, australia
Re: (BIG T)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BIG T »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how will it i handle if i only put the rear bar on and no front??</TD></TR></TABLE>
Do you like body roll? Keeping in mind that the front ARB will be substantially stiffer than the 13mm rear ARB, removing the front ARB will reduce the roll stiffness of the chassis as a whole, and the car will roll a lot more. This will tend to make the car less responsive to steering inputs, especially in situations where you're steering one way with lots of roll and weight transfer (note that the roll isn't causing the weight transfer), then need to quickly change direction the other way.
Increased roll will also increase roll induced camber changes relative to the road surface, and result in the tyres being less 'squarely' presented to the road and thus reduce grip. On the plus side removing the front ARB will increase weight transfer at the rear of the car and decrease it at the front, tending to decrease understeer (possibly to the point of basic neutrality or even oversteer). However the outright limits of grip are likely to significantly less.
My advice is to leave the front ARB in place, and fit either the 13mm rear ARB or a stiffer one. If you fit a stiffer rear ARB you'll get the benefits of having the 13mm rear ARB and no front ARB but without the adverse side affects related to excessive body roll.
Do you like body roll? Keeping in mind that the front ARB will be substantially stiffer than the 13mm rear ARB, removing the front ARB will reduce the roll stiffness of the chassis as a whole, and the car will roll a lot more. This will tend to make the car less responsive to steering inputs, especially in situations where you're steering one way with lots of roll and weight transfer (note that the roll isn't causing the weight transfer), then need to quickly change direction the other way.
Increased roll will also increase roll induced camber changes relative to the road surface, and result in the tyres being less 'squarely' presented to the road and thus reduce grip. On the plus side removing the front ARB will increase weight transfer at the rear of the car and decrease it at the front, tending to decrease understeer (possibly to the point of basic neutrality or even oversteer). However the outright limits of grip are likely to significantly less.
My advice is to leave the front ARB in place, and fit either the 13mm rear ARB or a stiffer one. If you fit a stiffer rear ARB you'll get the benefits of having the 13mm rear ARB and no front ARB but without the adverse side affects related to excessive body roll.
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From: 12 miles north of Detroit, MI
Re: (johnlear)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Do you like body roll? Keeping in mind that the front ARB will be substantially stiffer than the 13mm rear ARB, removing the front ARB will reduce the roll stiffness of the chassis as a whole, and the car will roll a lot more. This will tend to make the car less responsive to steering inputs, especially in situations where you're steering one way with lots of roll and weight transfer (note that the roll isn't causing the weight transfer), then need to quickly change direction the other way.
Increased roll will also increase roll induced camber changes relative to the road surface, and result in the tyres being less 'squarely' presented to the road and thus reduce grip. On the plus side removing the front ARB will increase weight transfer at the rear of the car and decrease it at the front, tending to decrease understeer (possibly to the point of basic neutrality or even oversteer). However the outright limits of grip are likely to significantly less.
My advice is to leave the front ARB in place, and fit either the 13mm rear ARB or a stiffer one. If you fit a stiffer rear ARB you'll get the benefits of having the 13mm rear ARB and no front ARB but without the adverse side affects related to excessive body roll.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
well done... you get an "A" for knowing your basic suspension theroies. however, you FAIL at knowing what you're talking about. The original question was about a '99 DX hatch. these cars (last i checked) have NO ARB of anykind. none in the rear, and none in the front. he was asking about just adding the rear as opposed to both. don't be so quick to assume everyone is a moron except you.
and to answer the question: see Voyage34's answer.
Do you like body roll? Keeping in mind that the front ARB will be substantially stiffer than the 13mm rear ARB, removing the front ARB will reduce the roll stiffness of the chassis as a whole, and the car will roll a lot more. This will tend to make the car less responsive to steering inputs, especially in situations where you're steering one way with lots of roll and weight transfer (note that the roll isn't causing the weight transfer), then need to quickly change direction the other way.
Increased roll will also increase roll induced camber changes relative to the road surface, and result in the tyres being less 'squarely' presented to the road and thus reduce grip. On the plus side removing the front ARB will increase weight transfer at the rear of the car and decrease it at the front, tending to decrease understeer (possibly to the point of basic neutrality or even oversteer). However the outright limits of grip are likely to significantly less.
My advice is to leave the front ARB in place, and fit either the 13mm rear ARB or a stiffer one. If you fit a stiffer rear ARB you'll get the benefits of having the 13mm rear ARB and no front ARB but without the adverse side affects related to excessive body roll.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
well done... you get an "A" for knowing your basic suspension theroies. however, you FAIL at knowing what you're talking about. The original question was about a '99 DX hatch. these cars (last i checked) have NO ARB of anykind. none in the rear, and none in the front. he was asking about just adding the rear as opposed to both. don't be so quick to assume everyone is a moron except you.
and to answer the question: see Voyage34's answer.
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From: strathcedar, nsw, australia
Re: (wreckless)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wreckless »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
well done... you get an "A" for knowing your basic suspension theroies. however, you FAIL at knowing what you're talking about. The original question was about a '99 DX hatch. these cars (last i checked) have NO ARB of anykind. none in the rear, and none in the front. he was asking about just adding the rear as opposed to both. don't be so quick to assume everyone is a moron except you.
and to answer the question: see Voyage34's answer. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The error is entirely understanable, I can't recall the last time I saw any car that didn't have at least a front ARB. So I'm not up on the (very) peculiarities of this particular model, so what? The principles still apply, though I would now (knowing what you have so 'thoughtfully' informed me of) encourage the OP to fit a front ARB as well as a rear ARB.
I strongly advise you to look in the mirror to find the real moron in this case. Such insulting language is simply not called for and uneccesary. You're obviously a sad ***** looking for an excuse to feel superior to other people.
well done... you get an "A" for knowing your basic suspension theroies. however, you FAIL at knowing what you're talking about. The original question was about a '99 DX hatch. these cars (last i checked) have NO ARB of anykind. none in the rear, and none in the front. he was asking about just adding the rear as opposed to both. don't be so quick to assume everyone is a moron except you.
and to answer the question: see Voyage34's answer. </TD></TR></TABLE>
The error is entirely understanable, I can't recall the last time I saw any car that didn't have at least a front ARB. So I'm not up on the (very) peculiarities of this particular model, so what? The principles still apply, though I would now (knowing what you have so 'thoughtfully' informed me of) encourage the OP to fit a front ARB as well as a rear ARB.
I strongly advise you to look in the mirror to find the real moron in this case. Such insulting language is simply not called for and uneccesary. You're obviously a sad ***** looking for an excuse to feel superior to other people.
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: (johnlear)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't recall the last time I saw any car that didn't have at least a front ARB. So I'm not up on the (very) peculiarities of this particular model, so what?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's not especially peculiar. Countless Civics were sold in North America with no sway bars at all from the factory.
'88-91 Civic STD, '92-95 Civic CX, VX & DX, '96-00 Civic CX & DX . . . that covers quite a large amount of cars, including all '92-00 hatchbacks except the '92-95 Si.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
It's not especially peculiar. Countless Civics were sold in North America with no sway bars at all from the factory.
'88-91 Civic STD, '92-95 Civic CX, VX & DX, '96-00 Civic CX & DX . . . that covers quite a large amount of cars, including all '92-00 hatchbacks except the '92-95 Si.
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From: strathcedar, nsw, australia
Re: (Targa250R)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's not especially peculiar. Countless Civics were sold in North America with no sway bars at all from the factory.
'88-91 Civic STD, '92-95 Civic CX, VX & DX, '96-00 Civic CX & DX . . . that covers quite a large amount of cars, including all '92-00 hatchbacks except the '92-95 Si.</TD></TR></TABLE>While I can't categorically state that Honda fitted a front ARB to every car it's ever sold here in Australia, I'd be surprised if they didn't. I suspect Honda (among others) percieves the Americam market to be a bit different to most others in not being quite so 'handling sensitive' as say Europe or Australia etc (correctly or not), and more 'plush ride senstive'.
This perception may be because Americans were apparently so happy for so long with their domestcally produced barges fitted with ultra soggy suspensions, perhaps due to the vast proliferation of very high quality 'freeways' compared to most (any?) other countries, where handling prowess isn't quite such an issue (?).
I could walk down any street here in Australia and look under every car parked in that street, and I'd be very surprised to find any not fitted with a front ARB, and nearly all would also have a rear ARB (though sometimes not much thicker than a length of spagghetti!).
Can we agree to not use words such as 'moron' etc?
It's not especially peculiar. Countless Civics were sold in North America with no sway bars at all from the factory.
'88-91 Civic STD, '92-95 Civic CX, VX & DX, '96-00 Civic CX & DX . . . that covers quite a large amount of cars, including all '92-00 hatchbacks except the '92-95 Si.</TD></TR></TABLE>While I can't categorically state that Honda fitted a front ARB to every car it's ever sold here in Australia, I'd be surprised if they didn't. I suspect Honda (among others) percieves the Americam market to be a bit different to most others in not being quite so 'handling sensitive' as say Europe or Australia etc (correctly or not), and more 'plush ride senstive'.
This perception may be because Americans were apparently so happy for so long with their domestcally produced barges fitted with ultra soggy suspensions, perhaps due to the vast proliferation of very high quality 'freeways' compared to most (any?) other countries, where handling prowess isn't quite such an issue (?).
I could walk down any street here in Australia and look under every car parked in that street, and I'd be very surprised to find any not fitted with a front ARB, and nearly all would also have a rear ARB (though sometimes not much thicker than a length of spagghetti!).
Can we agree to not use words such as 'moron' etc?
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From: Sofia, Bulgaria
Re: (johnlear)
What I have observed on the European market is pretty much what Targa250R said
with the exception that I haven't seen 88-91 civic without front ARB
and almost all 96-00 (UK built only) civics have one because they have a totally different body.
It seems more like being chassis/engine dependent, but I totally agree: there are lots of civics out there without any ARB.
with the exception that I haven't seen 88-91 civic without front ARB
and almost all 96-00 (UK built only) civics have one because they have a totally different body.
It seems more like being chassis/engine dependent, but I totally agree: there are lots of civics out there without any ARB.
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From: Columbus, Ohio, United States
Re: (johnlear)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnlear »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">While I can't categorically state that Honda fitted a front ARB to every car it's ever sold here in Australia, I'd be surprised if they didn't. I suspect Honda (among others) percieves the Americam market to be a bit different to most others in not being quite so 'handling sensitive' as say Europe or Australia etc (correctly or not), and more 'plush ride senstive'.
This perception may be because Americans were apparently so happy for so long with their domestcally produced barges fitted with ultra soggy suspensions, perhaps due to the vast proliferation of very high quality 'freeways' compared to most (any?) other countries, where handling prowess isn't quite such an issue (?).
I could walk down any street here in Australia and look under every car parked in that street, and I'd be very surprised to find any not fitted with a front ARB, and nearly all would also have a rear ARB (though sometimes not much thicker than a length of spagghetti!).
Can we agree to not use words such as 'moron' etc?</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol
OP, don't worry about a 13mm bar really disrupting your driving confidence.
This perception may be because Americans were apparently so happy for so long with their domestcally produced barges fitted with ultra soggy suspensions, perhaps due to the vast proliferation of very high quality 'freeways' compared to most (any?) other countries, where handling prowess isn't quite such an issue (?).
I could walk down any street here in Australia and look under every car parked in that street, and I'd be very surprised to find any not fitted with a front ARB, and nearly all would also have a rear ARB (though sometimes not much thicker than a length of spagghetti!).
Can we agree to not use words such as 'moron' etc?</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol
OP, don't worry about a 13mm bar really disrupting your driving confidence.
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Re: (Targa250R)
Originally Posted by ;32123295
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It's not especially peculiar. Countless Civics were sold in North America with no sway bars at all from the factory.
'88-91 Civic STD, '92-95 Civic CX, VX & DX, '96-00 Civic CX & DX . . . that covers quite a large amount of cars, including all '92-00 hatchbacks except the '92-95 Si.</TD></TR></TABLE>While I can't categorically state that Honda fitted a front ARB to every car it's ever sold here in Australia, I'd be surprised if they didn't. I suspect Honda (among others) percieves the Americam market to be a bit different to most others in not being quite so 'handling sensitive' as say Europe or Australia etc (correctly or not), and more 'plush ride senstive'.
This perception may be because Americans were apparently so happy for so long with their domestcally produced barges fitted with ultra soggy suspensions, perhaps due to the vast proliferation of very high quality 'freeways' compared to most (any?) other countries, where handling prowess isn't quite such an issue (?).
I could walk down any street here in Australia and look under every car parked in that street, and I'd be very surprised to find any not fitted with a front ARB, and nearly all would also have a rear ARB (though sometimes not much thicker than a length of spagghetti!).
Can we agree to not use words such as 'moron' etc?
It's not especially peculiar. Countless Civics were sold in North America with no sway bars at all from the factory.
'88-91 Civic STD, '92-95 Civic CX, VX & DX, '96-00 Civic CX & DX . . . that covers quite a large amount of cars, including all '92-00 hatchbacks except the '92-95 Si.</TD></TR></TABLE>While I can't categorically state that Honda fitted a front ARB to every car it's ever sold here in Australia, I'd be surprised if they didn't. I suspect Honda (among others) percieves the Americam market to be a bit different to most others in not being quite so 'handling sensitive' as say Europe or Australia etc (correctly or not), and more 'plush ride senstive'.
This perception may be because Americans were apparently so happy for so long with their domestcally produced barges fitted with ultra soggy suspensions, perhaps due to the vast proliferation of very high quality 'freeways' compared to most (any?) other countries, where handling prowess isn't quite such an issue (?).
I could walk down any street here in Australia and look under every car parked in that street, and I'd be very surprised to find any not fitted with a front ARB, and nearly all would also have a rear ARB (though sometimes not much thicker than a length of spagghetti!).
Can we agree to not use words such as 'moron' etc?
When I removed the front ARB on the “OEM set up with ARB”, I can't even corner continuously w/o using up the front suspension travel! But I did enjoy the oversteer -- still predictable enough.
Eventually, I decided to forgo the OEM set ups & use the softest Lesjöfors coil springs to maximize the ride height & still keeping the rate low for the most comfortable ride. Dampers are Monroe's high-end shocks front & Monroe's weaker base shocks rear, as this DX hatch still rides very firm from the back seats. The front spring rate is between these 2 OEM set ups, but that extra-long ride height leaves enough room to corner continuously without using up the front suspension travel when not having any ARB. Sure the body roll is tremendous like a floating hovercraft, but I totally enjoy drifting its back end all the time at low speeds, hence I don't even bother driving fast anymore. Of course, I replaced with a tiny-diameter MOMO steering wheel in order to counter steer in time. So I have to tilt the wheel all the way down in order not to block the instrumentation too much -- Now the lower part of the speedometer can't been seen anymore.
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