The question is regarding a rebuild of a B18C (JDM ITR) engine for H2 Honda Challenge.

In the all motor forum, most guys say to block them off to reduce the oil weight on the pistons. They also say it lowers oil pressure to the main bearings. Plus, they say JDM ITR motors didn't have oil squirters anyway.

On the other hand, if I am going to run above 7000 RPM for 25 minutes straight, it sounds like the pistons might want some cooling.

What are you guys doing?

 

The squirters lubricate the piston wrist pins. They also help draw heat out of the floor of the combustion chamber (ie. piston). And all P72 blocks have the squirters, USDM and JDM. Sure, it does use some oil, but don't you think Honda designed the oiling system to cope with the additional flow demand?

To counter the claims about B18A/B engines that I know someone will rebut with, LS engines don't have the same squirters but they have an oil jet built into the rod that sprays the wrist pin.

 

The all motor guys say it is merely a piston cooling thing, not any lubrication. Look how much of the wrist pin is actually exposed, it's only enough for the rod to go around:

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">n the all motor forum, most guys say to block them off to reduce the oil weight on the pistons. They also say it lowers oil pressure to the main bearings. Plus, they say JDM ITR motors didn't have oil squirters anyway.

On the other hand, if I am going to run above 7000 RPM for 25 minutes straight, it sounds like the pistons might want some cooling.

What are you guys doing?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Not listening to the guys on the AM forum as much as the engineers at Honda...

Keep in mind, most of those all-motor guys are drag racers or tuners looking for max power. Honda has profits and warrantee claims to consider. Durability is a pretty big deal for an OEM. Same for road racers. Honda wouldn't have put them in if they didn't have a purpose...

 

Does Kevin Helms come on here? He also recommended it blocking them off to raise oil pressure for the bearings. For those who don't know, he was the runner up in H1

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does Kevin Helms come on here? He also recommended it blocking them off to raise oil pressure for the bearings. For those who don't know, he was the runner up in H1</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, he does. His computer is broke right now so it might be a while. He is swamped right now with some projects. He doesn't not run the oil squirters.

I have stood next to Kevin and watched him build plenty of motors of all types. For me whatever he says goes. I don't argue anymore, well maybe I don't argue as much.

 

i dont think kevin runs oil squirters only because he is using a b20 block. non-vtec b series blocks dont come with them from factory.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The all motor guys say it is merely a piston cooling thing, not any lubrication. Look how much of the wrist pin is actually exposed, it's only enough for the rod to go around:

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Note the 2 holes that intersect with the wrist pin bore?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GI8U2racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does Kevin Helms come on here? He also recommended it blocking them off to raise oil pressure for the bearings.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Does he actually recommend blocking them off, or does he just not run them because he uses B20 blocks that never had squirters to begin with? (I really don't know, but I'd guess its the later...) Also consider that his oiling issues with a B20 block are going to be different than yours since Honda designed your B18C oiling system around VTEC. His engine's a different deal.

Kevin's got the best H1 spec B-series in game. But there are trade offs he's willing to take for the power he makes. Have you ever asked Kevin how long his B20/VTECs last? I have. He says they're good for about three weekends or six races before he has to pitch the block and get a new one. Who needs oil squirters on a disposable engine, right?

FWIW: I've had great luck with my non-VTEC engines without oil squirters. But they don't rev as high or build as much heat as the VTECs do. If I did have oil squirters, I sure as hell wouldn't get rid of them. Especially in an H2 engine that isn't much more than an OEM blue-printed engine anyway. Seems like there would be better ways to spend my time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you ever asked Kevin how long his B20/VTECs last? I have. He says they're good for about three weekends or six races before he has to pitch the block and get a new one. </TD></TR></TABLE>

John, when was this? I know more recently (2007) he's taken steps to make them MORE reliable. Now, if that means they last three weekends instead of two...

 

We talked at Nationals (Sept.) and then again last month over the phone when I was putting together the Nats coverage for Honda Tuning.

 

Gotcha. That'd be "really recent" then

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I know more recently (2007) he's taken steps to make them MORE reliable.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think he finally found an OEM piston that worked a little better. He's still cracking cylinder walls though. Not much to be done about that since sleeving the block isn't allowed in HC...

 

You know, I was just reading the H1 rules the other day. I saw that block GUARDS are now allowed, were they before? Do they make a big enough difference to help anything?

 

When I was working at Honda on the Champ Car engine program, we ran oil squirters in all the motors, and they actually changed the design a lot depending where they saw too much heat in the pistons. For running at high rpm's for extended amounts of time, I would run them!

 

Well he has run his GSR and ITR blocks both ways with and without oil squirters. I think the final rendition before he went to LS and then the B20 had no oil squirters in it. If I recall correctly the last few ("VTEC BLOCKS") he had done had none in them.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Kevin's got the best H1 spec B-series in game. But there are trade offs he's willing to take for the power he makes. Have you ever asked Kevin how long his B20/VTECs last? I have. He says they're good for about three weekends or six races before he has to pitch the block and get a new one. Who needs oil squirters on a disposable engine, right?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is correct they are lasting about 6 races at the current time. The compression is the major cause of this failure. The vibration and harmonics are creating the issue. There are a few different things that we may try for the 08 season to get the reliability better. If they would allow a sleeve at stock bore that would help a lot and keep prices down but who knows if they will ever allow that. There are 4-5 B20's just sitting over at the shop.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You know, I was just reading the H1 rules the other day. I saw that block GUARDS are now allowed, were they before? Do they make a big enough difference to help anything?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not sure where you got this info at.

i) A block guard that ties the top edge of the cylinder bores together is permitted for use in thea B20 block
and D series block only. The unit may be welded in place. This allowance is specifically designed to allow a
plate to be installed at the top of the bores and may not extend more than one inch below the top of the
engine block. This allowance does not permit the block to be “sleeved” which is the process of replacing the
cylinder bores with a stronger design. page 12
http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...s.pdf

And yes they do help in the B20 a lot..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> If they would allow a sleeve at stock bore that would help a lot and keep prices down but who knows if they will ever allow that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I doubt that will ever happen. Honda Cup went down that road. So did HU. And the resistance we saw after Nationals about Bernardo's K24 engine seems to confirm that the majority of H1 competitors don't really want to get that deep into engine building. I completely understand that line of thinking. But its sad to see limitations being put on guys like Helms and Martinez.

H1 is turning into an upscale version of H2. Maybe not a bad thing, but perhaps not as interesting as it might have been.

 

If it were me, I'd just run the squirts. The reliability factor far outweighs any small and incremental hp benefit.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Toad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not sure where you got this info at.

i) A block guard that ties the top edge of the cylinder bores together is permitted for use in thea B20 block
and D series block only. The unit may be welded in place. This allowance is specifically designed to allow a
plate to be installed at the top of the bores and may not extend more than one inch below the top of the
engine block. This allowance does not permit the block to be “sleeved” which is the process of replacing the
cylinder bores with a stronger design. page 12
http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...s.pdf

And yes they do help in the B20 a lot.. </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's exactly the rule I was talking about, so....you know where I got it In case this is what you missed, I said NOW allowed, not NOT allowed Have they always been allowed was my question.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Have they always been allowed was my question.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think so. I believe they were added to the rules in '06 or '07.

 

K, that would make sense then. I haven't looked at the H1 ruleset in about that long.

 

Great replies! I'll run them

 

Good Call

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H1 is turning into an upscale version of H2. Maybe not a bad thing, but perhaps not as interesting as it might have been.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Didn't H2 get created to be "down scale" version of H1?

 

DURRRRRRRRRR....sorry read that not, instead of now. WOW what a day...yes it was mid 06 I think.

It really is a good thing it does help in holding the B20 together.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I doubt that will ever happen. Honda Cup went down that road. So did HU. And the resistance we saw after Nationals about Bernardo's K24 engine seems to confirm that the majority of H1 competitors don't really want to get that deep into engine building. I completely understand that line of thinking. But its sad to see limitations being put on guys like Helms and Martinez.

H1 is turning into an upscale version of H2. Maybe not a bad thing, but perhaps not as interesting as it might have been.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know, it would help costs for Helms and Martinez. I wish that was just something that they would consider but as you say it won't happen. Just sucks...I get sick of seeing all the B20 blocks sitting at the shop. I can understand, but in the long run it would save some money. I know the LS/VTEC ran for 2 years minimum in the EG Kevin has, I think it might be in his street car now. That is the longevity that sleeves would provide.