OK, after a long while searching and looking for answers i am here..

When it comes to handling i am a complete NOOB. this year i plan to do some HPDE events, along with some drag events in the all motor street stock class. im not to worried about the drag suspension setup, but rather the track days. i would like to make it a fun experience..

as the car sits this is what i have on a 00 gsr

koni yellows w/ H&R race coils.
205/50/15 azenis rt-615

-what i am/was planning on is a ITR rear sway with the support brace.
-adjustable upper control arms to set alignment/camber specs?? help with these specs??
-brake upgrages, good rotors/pads, braided brake lines, flush brake system.
-strut/arm bars,, do they really offer additional rigidity??

in all i am looking for some assistance to build the car so it is comfortable/controlable on the track, not looking to become dale jr. or any thing like that. the car is driven on the street but very limited, not a daily driver. Looking for dirrection, would hate to do things twice..

thanx for the help, comments please..

 

Skip the adjustable camber bits and strut bars, they won't do anything/aren't worth your money right now. Good pads, fresh brake fluid is it, and ITR rear sway is great too.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Skip the adjustable camber bits and strut bars, they won't do anything/aren't worth your money right now. Good pads, fresh brake fluid is it, and ITR rear sway is great too.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Very good advice. Go with that...

 

I would say skip the RT-615, they are an all or nothing tire. (lots of grip but they let go real hard)
you may have a little more fun with a tire that's forgiving.

 

I disagree. I think the 615 is a great tire, and pretty progressive. At least half of my students have used it with great success. What are you basing that off of?

 

Agreed the 615 is a much better tire than the older 215. Both are predictable and have great feedback. Especially when there is some heat in the tire. I find it difficult to believe that you have tracked this tire. Also there is a lot of great tests showing the quality of the 615.

 

thanks guys for the help. so strut bars = lower arm bars?? looks like i have to go with aftermarket seats and rails, im 6'3" and my head hits the roof with the helmet on. my trans is an 97 jdm itr w/ a 4.785 diff, i will be changing the rev limit of my ls/v from 9k to probly somewhere around 7500-8000 for the events. the first event around here for HPDE group 1 is in early may , lol..

 

You could also try removing some of the foam from the bottom seat cushion. Just have to take the cover off to do it. Dropping the rev limit for events is a good idea too. Where are you from?

 

i have thought about that but the gsr leather seats wont be that great at holding me in, the leather is to slippery.

i live in delaware so the events i will be making this year are pocono and the new track in millville NJ later this summer when it officially opens. the jersey track will be around an hour drive for me .

 

Gotcha, yeah leather is a bitch on track. I'd also suggest cloth Del Sol seats with Integra sliders. That'll sit you a few inches lower, and will be cheaper and easier than anything else. If you're in DE, you could also check out Summit Point, and maybe VIR. They'd be more of a haul than Pocono, but I know there are several events at VIR starting as early as Feb.

 

For the seating issue see the link a few below this one.
The other advice is on point.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/2182787

 

IMO, Summit Point (the main circuit) is a much more fun track than Pocono. The NJ tracks also look like they'll be a blast and look forward to trying them out myself!

 

summit point looks to be the same distance as pocono for me, when do the group 1 HPDE events start there??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I disagree. I think the 615 is a great tire, and pretty progressive. At least half of my students have used it with great success. What are you basing that off of?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Im not saying their a bad tire. They are cheep and have more grip than most street tires.
Wile I was in Oregon I went to 3 autocrosses, 2 of the regulars there where on RT615s. (a GSR and an EK hatch)
Both said that they where looking for something else because they didn't like the way they let go.
My Brother also had a set on his MSM (MazdaSpeed Miata).
The grip in that car just about never ended,
But when it did if it got out more than about 5-7º it was NOT coming back no matter what you did.
He used to run canyons, He spun out in the canyons 3 times on RT615s.
The last time he ran a canyon was 3 years ago (on RT615s).
The back came out about 10º, He got it to come back and it went rite out the other way in to a hedge with a tree in it.
$5,234 later, no more canyons for him. He runs autocross on ES100s.
He said on the ES100 he can put the back end where ever he wants and it will always come back.
I also run ES100s, and have never got in to a slid that i couldn't get out of.
but now im kinda looking at maybe switching up to a RE-01R.

 

Ok, well...I'm sorry, but that's the worst evidence I can think of for your point. Some "regulars" say they don't ever come back after losing it. That's just plain incorrect. How do I know? Because I've gotten loose with them and had no trouble regaining traction. I've been in student's cars that have done the same thing. As a street tire, they simply can't be designed to behave like that.

Spinning out in "the canyons" is not at all indicative of any property of a tire. Most likely your brother was overdriving the car and screwed up. No matter what tire he had, if he screwed up like it sounds he's spinning. I'm going to make a random guess and say he lifted off the throttle. Done.

ES100s are a hugely inferior tire in everything except the rain. If you've "never got into a slide that you couldn't get out of" then you're not going fast enough. It's just physics.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ES100s are a hugely inferior tire in everything except the rain. If you've "never got into a slide that you couldn't get out of" then you're not going fast enough. It's just physics.</TD></TR></TABLE>

+1

615's are fine for HPDE students. They offer a high level of grip for a street tire & provide a good amount of audible feedback as they are pushed. They offer higher grip than the ES100, so when they do let go; you will most likely be going faster (ie. more likely to get in trouble).

PS - My wife used ES100s on her automatic Accord as an all-season tire. They have a fairly soft sidewall for a cushier ride than the falkens.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Some "regulars" say they don't ever come back after losing it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is not what I said.
The guy in the GSR said that they didn't always grip when he wanted them to.
The guy in the EK said he had trouble reacting to the speed at witch they would let go.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm going to make a random guess and say he lifted off the throttle. Done.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That was not the the case.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Most likely your brother was overdriving the car and screwed up.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That should have been obvious.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you've "never got into a slide that you couldn't get out of" then you're not going fast enough. It's just physics.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If your going fast enough to get in to a slid you cant get out of,
Physics just told you that you where going to fast.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Stinkycheezmonky &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ES100s are a hugely inferior tire in everything except the rain.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was not trying to say that the ES100 was a better tire than the RT615.
Comparing the grip of the ES100s to that of the RT615s is like comparing apples to ethanol.
I said that I would skip the RT615s on my first HPDE.
What makes a tire "better" than any other depends on what your looking for.
If your look for the closest thing you can find to a dirt cheep death grip on asphalt the RT615 is for you.
I have had 4 sets of ES100s. They WILL NOT get you the fastest lap time.
But they seem to have a nack for compensating for the inadequacies of the driver, Wile making them glaringly obviously.
They have shown me menny of mine and helped me overcome most of them.
I would be more then willing to sacrifice grip for control and predictability.

I was not warning him of impending doom or failure do to his tires.
Just making a suggestion that I thought might help.
And I wasn't suggesting that he switch to ES100s.
Just that's what my brother and I use now.



Modified by CarFreek at 9:38 PM 12/27/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CarFreek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

That is not what I said.
The guy in the GSR said that they didn't always grip when he wanted them to.
The guy in the EK said he had trouble reacting to the speed at witch they would let go.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're right, I misread that/didn't look back over it. But YOU did say that about your brother's experience, even if they didn't.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CarFreek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That was not the the case.

That should have been obvious.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, like I said, random guess. 90% of the cases I've seen have been due to lifting when someone shouldn't have. My point was that he screwed up, and it wasn't a fault of the tires. I don't think you've proven me wrong on that one.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CarFreek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If your going fast enough to get in to a slid you cant get out of,
Physics just told you that you where going to fast.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You made a claim about what I quoted. That with the ES100s you "never got into a slide you couldn't get out of." I was saying that if you went faster, you WOULD get into such a slide (an unrecoverable one). Again, that says nothing about the tire, only your driving. I could accomplish the same thing on bald all-seasons, that doesn't mean there's anything good about them.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CarFreek &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I was not trying to say that the ES100 was a better tire than the RT615.
Comparing the grip of the ES100s to that of the RT615s is like comparing apples to ethanol.
I said that I would skip the RT615s on my first HPDE.
What makes a tire "better" than any other depends on what your looking for.
If your look for the closest thing you can find to a dirt cheep death grip on asphalt the RT615 is for you.
I have had 4 sets of ES100s. They WILL NOT get you the fastest lap time.
But they seem to have a nack for compensating for the inadequacies of the driver, Wile making them glaringly obviously.
They have shown me menny of mine and helped me overcome most of them.
I would be more then willing to sacrifice grip for control and predictability.

I was not warning him of impending doom or failure do to his tires.
Just making a suggestion that I thought might help.
And I wasn't suggesting that he switch to ES100s.
Just that's what my brother and I use now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But it seems like you are saying it's your opinion that the ES100s are better for a novice HPDEr, based on your experiences. You're right that a "best" tire is somewhat subjective, based on the user's needs. However, your criteria for WHY the Azenis is unsuitable is incorrect. They don't have horrible and sudden breakaway characteristics, and they do have normal recovery time. While for whatever reason that might not be your experience, it is MY experience, as well as something like 50 other people I know, many of whom are very accomplished drivers. I also have personal experience with ES100s, and have students with the same experience.

I don't know what you mean by "But they seem to have a nack for compensating for the inadequacies of the driver, Wile making them glaringly obviously." so I'm not going to comment on it.

I'm sure the OP appreciates your concern, and I'm glad you're trying to be helpful. But I'd either talk to more people or get a more objective test for yourself before reaching such conclusions.

 

Thats a very weird thing to say about RT-615's. I run em on track with a relatively loose civic and trust me I've had this car sideways more times then I can count, and I cannot recal the last time I spun this car. I'm typically impressed with how easy and predictable it is.
I drove my friends miata with a rather aggressive alignment (loose) at streets on RT-615's. Being a FWD HPDE'r I started off with the fwd line and my typical loose driving habits and had that miata sliding around nearly every turn until i learned how to drive a RWD car on track. Again, extremely progressive and not one spin. I'm faster on my RT-615's then a lot of people are on R comps, and thats because I've taken the time to learn the car on a street tire. My next tire will be an R comp, but I still have at least 5-6 events left on these RT-615's.

Back to original poster. I would recommend adding Ground controls to your list, however wait on this until you have a couple events under your belt. At that point you will be ready for a stiffer and more loose car. I run 400f/500r on my Koni/GC setup on a street driven hatch with what used to be LS 22mm front sway and ITR 22mm rear sway. (Just upgraded to ASR 24mm rear)

I would recommend the adjustable upper control arms since you don't have to fall into any class. Alignments are a great thing, however I do understand why HT RR community doesn't feel like this is the most important aspect to focus on. Strut bar should be an after thought if you really feel like spending the money. You'll be lucky to see any benefit. Chassis braces are not worth your time imo, especially if you eventually get a roll bar.