Eventually I'm going to put all my stuff together and have a high HP CRX, and one thing on my mind is what I will be using for traction control.

I know I can do staged boost, but that won't be enough IMO. I want a way to have the car make the best use of the given track conditions at that specific moment. So far I've heard motec does something like this, cutting some timing until the wheelspin is within a desired spec without misfiring. Could I get a program written to do something like this with Crome, using one of the unused inputs to cut timing or something? Or would I be better off just getting motec or something else. I know I can make the power needed on Crome, the question is how can I get some sort of feedback system to keep the car from spinning all the way down the track.

My goal is to go to the local track and run 9's with no problems in a street CRX to pick on the local mustangs. I honestly don't care about specific class rules and all the crap, but I would like to have a full interior car with a cage that can be driven on the street to the track if I want to do such a thing. Putting on a set of slicks isn't a problem, although I'd like to see how possible this would be on ET Streets.

I'm trying to budget this thing so knowing if Motec or a particular EMS is my only option will help a lot. I'd rather do it the simplest and cheapest way possible while still getting the desired results. The desired results will be having the car run consistently and be able to get maximum use of whatever particular track conditions exist at any given moment.

thanks for any help,

 

It's not going to happen with crome. Traction control can get pretty complicated, but the motec can definitely do it. You will need a min. of 2 wheel speed inputs, 1 driven wheel and 1 non driven wheel. The ecu measures "slip" by comparing the two speeds. What you do with it is up to you, there are lots of ways you can go about controlling it with motec. Something to keep in mind though, for good acceleration with traction control, you can't be out in left field. You have to be close to having full traction or the ecu will have to cut power too hard and the engine and car will slow down too much. You can't go out with 600whp on street tires in 1st gear and expect the traction control to take care of it. You need to have the boost by gear setup good and then the traction control can take it from there.

 

^^What he said.

 

so it looks like i need to run staged boost and cut some timing with motec to keep the car from spinning.

thanks for the input Tony. it looks like you got it down to a science with the red teggy. If you come to HRP next month I wouldn't doubt you get an 8 sec pass, considering how poor the track conditions were at SAR.

 

im thinking aem would be ur best and cheapest bet

 

HELL JUST ADD A COUPLE OF FAT CHICKS......

 

heck I'm already about 240-250lbs myself maybe that will do the trick haha. Since the CRX is light enough I could add some more weight to the front.


does AEM have traction control system I could use? has anyone had any luck with it?

 

We have been messing with that stuff for the past 5 years and still don't have it right. Boost, tire size, gearing, tire pressure, track conditions, as well as the traction control, etc. all work together. Hoping traction control will take care of all of it is not the solution to all traction problems. Just analyzing data has been an utter mind boggling exprience. If anything, it adds yet another variable to either be a great advantage or complicated mind altering disadvantage.

 

what are you guys doing to maintain traction?

I know I have to have the suspension set up right, the correct tire pressure, drivetrain, etc....

but no matter how much all the other stuff is set up right, when the slicks start spinning too much, the coefficient of friction changes and I have not much frictional force to accelerate the car. Like Tony said, I think we need to set up the car so that it doesn't make a whole lot more power than what the given setup can handle at particular speeds. That being said, some sort of staged boost is obviously going to happen. But once we have that, I don't think a single power level in each gear will be able to take advantage of specific track conditions.

Let's say you have the boost set so the car wont spin at all on a particular run, but now the particular situation that exact moment will allow for more power to be put down, then the car won't run to its potential. This is why some sort of feedback system using speed sensors in the front and rear will have to be used to make some sort of changes to cut back on the power being produced.

I think the solution is to cut back a little bit of timing. If we cut too much it would be a bad thing, probably misfiring if I am correct. So the staged boost needs to also be set to not have an overwhelming amount of power for the given speed.

anyways I'll stop rambling on, thanks for the input so far. I'm just brainstorming. The fact of the matter is I see lots of guys putting down lots and lots of power on the dyno, but not many can actually put the power down on the track where it matters.

 

Is TC legal in SPFWD?

 

It's all in the boost control. I use the Motec to control boost and i have control of the boost at each rpm in each gear, so you have total control of how much boost and how hard it comes on. Once the tire spins in a gear, it's likely to spin most the way through that gear, that's why how the boost comes on is important. We all know boost makes torque, if the boost comes on too hard it'll break the tires loose. If you bring in power smooth and linearly you can apply a lot of power w/o breaking the tire loose, and that's how you go fast.

I do not use traction control. Traction control used for safety on a road race car or rwd car is very useful and easy to setup, but traction control on a drag car being used to optimize traction is very difficult to setup. Stopping the tires from spinning is not hard, but doing so without negative affects on acceleration is.

Have you ever been in a car with oem traction control that didn't fall on it's face when the tires spin?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's all in the boost control. I use the Motec to control boost and i have control of the boost at each rpm in each gear, so you have total control of how much boost and how hard it comes on. Once the tire spins in a gear, it's likely to spin most the way through that gear, that's why how the boost comes on is important. We all know boost makes torque, if the boost comes on too hard it'll break the tires loose. If you bring in power smooth and linearly you can apply a lot of power w/o breaking the tire loose, and that's how you go fast.

I do not use traction control. Traction control used for safety on a road race car or rwd car is very useful and easy to setup, but traction control on a drag car being used to optimize traction is very difficult to setup. Stopping the tires from spinning is not hard, but doing so without negative affects on acceleration is.

Have you ever been in a car with oem traction control that didn't fall on it's face when the tires spin?</TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed. I am learning much from this. Hence why I am getting an NLR. I drove an e36 M3 back in the day and with traction control on.... when i banged gears into 2nd, the TC kicked in and damn near put me through the windshield

 

Your right foot.

 

im just amazed that crome and motec were mentioned in the same paragraph.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo-charged &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im just amazed that crome and motec were mentioned in the same paragraph. </TD></TR></TABLE>

play nice now!

 

well if crome can get the job done, then why not use it?

I know for a fact that crome will allow me to make the power I need to make. Now whether I can figure out a way to get the car to hook with crome is another story.

 

Thanks for the info Tony,

We also use boost by gear in the same way, but the way I read the earlier thread made it sound like you were using TC ie retarding ign etc when the wheels span.

Congrats on the 9.1 btw

 

i think he said that the motec has inputs for wheel speed that you can use the drive and non-drive wheels. And that what you get the motec to do when there is a difference between these speeds is up to you.

Unless he is just keeping his tricks of the trade secret, which I wouldn't blame him, it appears he is using the amount the front tires spin to determine how much boost to run and controlling this via motec.

If I were currently racing, I would pay a lot of attention to how to keep the car from spinning too much, because very few people seem to have the right formula. I am planning my budget for what turbo setup and EMS I will need to run.

 

The boost control system does not see tire spin and compensate. It's just a boost by rpm program for each gear. If the tires spin and rpm increases, so does boost, and they will continue to spin. The trick is getting it setup right where it doesn't break them loose to begin with. There are other ways to do things for sure, but this is how i'm doing it and i have it working very good. I only have 1 wheel speed sensor, and it's the factory VSS, so i can't measure slip in the ecu.

 

From my experience, there always has to be a delta of some sort between the drive wheel and the drag wheel in order to keep the vehicle moving forward. What that delta, or percentage of slip, is all depends on the vehicle, traction conditions, power, on and on and on. No one traction control set-up will be universal.

In my mind, the drive tires must always be in the state of acceleration when compared to the drag wheel, in order to keep the vehicle accelerating. Just a little FYI

But there are many ways to skin a cat, and a delta / percentage of slip rate isn't the only way

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Turbo-charged &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im just amazed that crome and motec were mentioned in the same paragraph. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Same stuff right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4piston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Same stuff right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think they are priced similarly

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I think they are priced similarly </TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct, I had a Crome Motec back in the day.

 

Well like Ron said, Bergenholtz Racing has been working with traction control for a very long time. I would even go as far as saying that we probably have more experience with traction control in drag racing than almost any other drag racing team on the planet.

Interestingly enough, many traditional drag racers have chastised our team for going against the grain of the "Slipper Clutch". For over 50 years the slider clutch has been the premier "traction control" in drag racing. Being the technical guy that I am and the nature of Bergenholtz Racing to find better ways to do something, we would rather have active systems rather than passive slipper clutches.

Everyone thought we were nuts with the wheelie bars and some drag racers treat us the same way with our traction control systems. I can see where they are coming from, "If it ain't broke for 50+ years, don't fix it". Well, we still don't use a slipper and I think we are the one of the quickest if not the quickest FWD off the line. 1.16 60ft is our best so far in competition with numerous 1.17's and and 1.18's.

If there is any advice I can give with traction control it's that you cannot substitute it for a balanced chassis, suspension, engine, driver, etc... Traction control is not a magic bullet. It is one part of the machine that works in harmony with everything else. Using traction control to make your car quicker is a tough and maybe impractical task. What it can do from a very basic nature is keep the car somewhat consistent and prevent ultra terrible runs. It makes for a great safety net.

That's the beauty of our genre of Drag Racing, we all have fresh blood to try new things. So anyway, remember traction control is still relatively new in drag racing and that there are millions of ways to skin a cat.....or launch a car off the line

Ed B.

 

do you think it's worth having some sort of feedback system to cut back on boost or timing when the slicks start spinning too much?

sometimes it sure does sound like your car is hitting some sort of timing cut, but maybe I'm just imagining things lol.