What is the real feeling on this?

Your choices really shouldn't be qualify, go home or brackets. But that's generally what happens at Compact events. In the Lucas series there is a "home" for you no matter what your driving and your facing close to equal competition and average at least 1-2 heads up races per event.

One or Two Index classes would I believe solve some of the low turnout problems. It gives slower cars a chance!

Not everybody is interested in spending the money it takes to build a competitive Turbo 4/SFWD car nor do they want to drive a "tin can" that runs 11's on the motor.

I am one of those people...

Am I the ONLY one???

 

I am one of those as well...

I would like to sfwd/t4, but its a little spendy for my situation right now. Only 21, just out of college, etc.
I would like to do something other than brackets....

I have a car that should be rocking high11's low 12's this upcoming spring, but no real class to get into.

 

There's a place for everyone to race right now, and the average guy without a prepared car still doesn't race. Do you want to see 9 second SFWD cars leaving the line and not hitting the gas until the 330 mark or beyond...then getting on the brakes once they know they are in front?? That stuff is boring!

One serious index racer in an auto car with a box comes out and hoses down the competition every week and you are back where you started...with 2 more empty classes. Lets concentrate on filling the classes we have.

Sport compact racing has never really been about who can win the most races, who can win the championship...it is largely about who is the fastest. It certainly isn't about sandbagging.

 

I think theres room for index racing, as long as young and new racers understand what it means.

I've always been for goign the fastest and all, but looking at it in a long term and business perspective, we are losing racers because we focus on heads up racing too much. The general belief that most enthusiasts dont race is because they dont feel they have a place. You say there is a place for everyone, but if there was, why are people afraid to race at the track. Most of them think they are either too slow, or have not put enough money to compete. Even high 10sec turbo guys dont feel they can compete. Why do I feel this way, because most of my customers are those guys. They tell me thats their feelings and even with their 500-600hp setups, they think they are not competitve enough.

Index racing will give these guys a place to feel competitive without having to break the bank to try to hit 9s.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4piston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a place for everyone to race right now, and the average guy without a prepared car still doesn't race. Do you want to see 9 second SFWD cars leaving the line and not hitting the gas until the 330 mark or beyond...then getting on the brakes once they know they are in front?? That stuff is boring!
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that style of index racing is trying to hit 8.90 or 9.90 crap like that. if there was heads up racing for a range it would work. 10.- 10.9, 11.-11.9, 12-12.9 if you break out of your bracket you go home. you would have to be an *** if you had a 10.6 car and say i couldn't win in a 10.-10.9 class, because you could always tree someone. and if you car is quicker than a 10.0 run in q16

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4piston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a place for everyone to race right now, and the average guy without a prepared car still doesn't race. Do you want to see 9 second SFWD cars leaving the line and not hitting the gas until the 330 mark or beyond...then getting on the brakes once they know they are in front?? That stuff is boring!

One serious index racer in an auto car with a box comes out and hoses down the competition every week and you are back where you started...with 2 more empty classes. Lets concentrate on filling the classes we have.

Sport compact racing has never really been about who can win the most races, who can win the championship...it is largely about who is the fastest. It certainly isn't about sandbagging.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you are confusing that with bracket racing. Having an index class gives everyone a chance to race heads up with out having to have a TRILLION$$$ to be competitive.
Its also a good place for cars that dont fit into a class.Let alone fit into a class and compete. This would be for an 10sec car that has a fiberglass front end and lexan,but doesn't have that 7.90-8.90 motor to run in HOT ROD.

Although this may sound like Q16 it really isn't. The best way i can describe this class for people to understand is kind like how PINKS ALL OUT is run.

Index racing works really well in the OUTLAW DOMESTIC classes. I'm sure it would work really well for us. Actually, they dont even run a bracket class at most of them. They just have the index classes in place of BRACKETS.

 

I'm not confusing it with bracket racing. Both cars leave together and are held to a certain index. Ideally it is like you describe it, but what it becomes is fast guys setting their cars up to take home trophies in a slower index.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dj4monie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Am I the ONLY one???</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hell no, I actually started a topic on this about a week ago.
I would definetly support and have interest in an Index System getting put into place.

Look towards domestic for all the answer, that's been working for years...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4piston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not confusing it with bracket racing. Both cars leave together and are held to a certain index. Ideally it is like you describe it, but what it becomes is fast guys setting their cars up to take home trophies in a slower index.

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if they run to fast...move up to the next index or to a pro class.

i like the idea. i have a 89 hatchback with a fiberglass front end and lexan...i last ran 12.6 in fontana 05, but i cant compete in all motor running those times and would love to run heads up to get practice on the tree...im not against brackets, but i think it makes absolutely a lot of since. if not make the indexes brackets so that there are not 13 sec. cars racing 17 sec cars...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4piston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not confusing it with bracket racing. Both cars leave together and are held to a certain index. Ideally it is like you describe it, but what it becomes is fast guys setting their cars up to take home trophies in a slower index.

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Ok my bad... i understand what you are saying now. But the thing is...If they run too fast, then they break out and lose. And like was mentioned... If you are that fast, then move up.

Thats why it would be a good idea to have maybe 2-3 index classses so that if someone starts out as a 12 sec car can eventually move up to a 9.99 index. Sometimes when the 12sec people start out...thats all th emoney they have to start...then down the road when and if they get more money,they can buy and ad the parts to go faster and bump up to the next index or even go pro.

 

You guys are missing what index racing is about. People run MUCH faster cars in a slower index, then just set their box up so that the car runs the same number EVERY pass within the index

Obviously we would have no electronic devices, but what is to keep someone from entering an auto car that runs 11.0 in an 11.5 index class, and dialing it back to run 11.500-11.502 every pass?

I can tell you right now that if there was a 12.0 index, I can back the nitrous down on my EVO and run a 12.0 every pass within a couple thousandths of a second and I can cut an .000-.020 light every pass on a sportsman tree in that car. It isn't just limited to auto cars. It is a whole new type of racing and I understand what you are trying to accomplish with it, and I suggested it to NHRASC years ago, and they set me straight on it. I went and learned more about it after that. SC racing was founded on heads up ***** to the walls, run it out the back racing.

Maybe it would be successful, but you gotta go watch this jibberish first and see how it works with people who take it seriously.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ExospeedAMcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've always been for goign the fastest and all, but looking at it in a long term and business perspective, we are losing racers because we focus on heads up racing too much.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I suspect that if someone were to survey all potential racers, new people looking to get into this sport, you could classify most people into 2 groups: Group A has money to spend but doesn't have the talent to ever become pro-level racers. Group B is the talented driver who gets the most out of his equipment but doesn't have the budget to build a class leading car.

Group A people are interested in heads up racing, since they figure they can buy the parts to make them competitive.

Group B people like bracket racing (and possibly index racing), since the playing field is level, and they figure they can out-drive the competition.

Any business owner selling parts would be wise to market to the Group A people, no?

 

why is everyone so concerned with making new classes instead of filling up the ones currently available?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why is everyone so concerned with making new classes instead of filling up the ones currently available?</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by T4 Neon &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Any business owner selling parts would be wise to market to the Group A people, no?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Group A will buy parts regardless, since those are the ones that have moved up and are hardcore racers. No one needs to give them gimmicks or whatever to encourage them to race.

Its wise to market to all of course. Group A racers already are the ones showing up. Group B is what we are losing and not getting enough of. You cant tell the guys who are already racing to keep racing. They are already there. You have to give room for the guys who AREN'T racing yet and show them they have a place to race.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why is everyone so concerned with making new classes instead of filling up the ones currently available?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think the point of making new ones(Index) are for the racers who arent racing now. The guys who either have old outdated cars who cant compete in the Exisiting classes or guys who are just beginners and also cant compete in Existing Classes.

In the domestic racing scene, you see cars that have been sitting in the garage for 5-10 years. Dust them off and they have a class somewhere they can race competitively. You park a Honda drag car for 2 years, its already outdated and has no where to race. They become obsolete so fast, its sad and a waste of money.
Race cars like Erick Aguilar's old Civic, Leslie's CRX, Rev Hard's old cars, Kubo's Civic, etc, which have been sold off or retired could be bought by some regular local guy who can put it together and race in an index class. It would be awesome if these guys had funds to actually turn them into competitive PRO cars, but not everyone can do that. We're looking back at 10+yrs of SC Drag Racing with so many cars that are rusting and sitting in someones garage unused. They need a place to race other than forcing them to be in a Pro Class.

 

Because the people that can fill the classes are the ones that can't compete in the ones we have. So they just sit on the net and daydream of having money and being able to run 8.90's or better in HOT ROD.

Every index race i've been to EVERYONE runs ***** out. Like when we raced a 10.5 Outlaw race. They had a 8.50 index(1/4 mile) . The qualifying ladder looked like NHRA PRO STOCK cause the times were so close. Yeah there was an occasional 8.49, so of course he was eliminated for running to fast. Alot of the cars where mix matched cars, meaning.. theses cars where not competitive in their respected classes, but still able to run in an index class heads up and still have fun and not go broke trying to keep up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4piston &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There's a place for everyone to race right now, and the average guy without a prepared car still doesn't race. Do you want to see 9 second SFWD cars leaving the line and not hitting the gas until the 330 mark or beyond...then getting on the brakes once they know they are in front?? That stuff is boring!

One serious index racer in an auto car with a box comes out and hoses down the competition every week and you are back where you started...with 2 more empty classes. Lets concentrate on filling the classes we have.

Sport compact racing has never really been about who can win the most races, who can win the championship...it is largely about who is the fastest. It certainly isn't about sandbagging.</TD></TR></TABLE>
X2

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why is everyone so concerned with making new classes instead of filling up the ones currently available?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I could try and run in sfwd/t4, but with 11sec timeslips....I am just wasting time and money. Ya I like to race and it would be fun to go down the track, but I would never even qualify for a race....let alone win one. Well maybe qualify, if there isnt enough cars to fill the field, still no shot at winning or even placing in the top 3.

Brackets are alright and all, but an indexing system would make it better.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't beat money. The little guy with talent may win 1 every now and then, but not very often. That being said, Just go racing, you may not win or even have chance but you don't know until you try. Go race and enjoy being there, then do what it takes to win or don't, but at least you can say you tried.

 

After spending 20K or so to build up one of these cars... trying and not qualifying for alot of these guys is very discouraging. Telling them they need to spend another 20K to go from high 10s to the 9s, isnt going to keep them racing for long.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bruised eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm sorry, but you can't beat money. The little guy with talent may win 1 every now and then, but not very often. That being said, Just go racing, you may not win or even have chance but you don't know until you try. Go race and enjoy being there, then do what it takes to win or don't, but at least you can say you tried. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with what you are saying except YOU CAN'T BEAT MONEY. I think we proved in the last couple years that you can beat money. But then there will be a line behind us saying we are the one with money. So it is a double edge sword.

"You can't beat money" mentality is why we lack full fields.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FMUNK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree with what you are saying except YOU CAN'T BEAT MONEY. I think we proved in the last couple years that you can beat money. But then there will be a line behind us saying we are the one with money. So it is a double edge sword.

"You can't beat money" mentality is why we lack full fields.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you can beat it with a CERTAIN amt of money, but not just any money.

Let's say in your case, you guys had the Civic. If another guy had a decent Hot Rod car, with a budget of 35-40K to build from scratch, can that guy run 7.70s also? or is that racer in the level of high 8s.
can that guy compete strongly round to round with your guy's Civic?
In my opinion no.

A sponsor backed team may have 250K, you guys maybe had $100K budget for the year, but the guy with a total of $10K budget per year after building the car has no chance to compete fully. Luck.. that can happen, but you cant count on winning by luck all the time.

So in the end, you still can't beat money.

P.S. you did a hell of a job Jeromie. big for all the work you guys did this past season.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ExospeedAMcrx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">After spending 20K or so to build up one of these cars... trying and not qualifying for alot of these guys is very discouraging. Telling them they need to spend another 20K to go from high 10s to the 9s, isnt going to keep them racing for long.</TD></TR></TABLE>


oh dame dont remind me that i have 2 brake out the pocket book again to keep up. the cars only been sitting 6 months. im hoping another 10k gets me mid low 9s, another 20k will make he havt to sell the house \. already sold the wife & kids

no but really i know what your saying im around 30k into my car now & i cant give up i put my life saving into this car already. thiers no one helping me for sponsorship so i aint letting my car rust away , run it till the doors fall off.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ALL IMPORT &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
run it till the doors fall off.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

index racing with electronics is a joke, you gotta do it with just driver skills.

it's been very good for the old vws, 12.90, 11.90, 10.90, some classes have 16 car fields, which means a better payout.

you cut your teeth on brackets, then go to index or pro am, after that it's all-motor or quick8 or ? there has to be a progression, something between the pro classes and brackets, i guess that pro am does that on the west coast.

the problem is that someday, somebody is going to put a race motor in a pro am car, and blow the class away... but it's no advantage for index racing.