I'm running a built h22 bottom end with a h23 head on it turbo'd with a homemade kit. I put about 370 miles on the motor for break-in and during dyno tuning we scored the center main bearing. It didn't spin, but it got hot and started ticking.
We pulled the girdle off with the main caps while it was in the car and found the one bearing went bad, anyone know why, or have any ideas?

We spec'd the motor before assembly (Both ways, with the micrometer and plastiguage) and the numbers were all withing factory spec (On the loose side of factory) and it ran great for the first 370. We had boost around 11 psi and all was well, made about 12 pulls and then the ticking.

Run down on the build:

Darton H22 block
Crower rods
Wiseco pistons
Calico coated ACL bearings
Arp Studs all around
Stock oil pump (New)
Balance shafts removed

Maybe that one bearing was a bit tighter than the rest, but I don't recall any of them being of any concern when assembling it.

I'm going to pull the crank and have that journal polished and have the crank in general checked out again, then back in once again.

If anyone has any ideas let me know.

L8r all

 

Bump

 

What weight oil were you running??
Reason I ask Is that you said the clearences were on the Loose side.
Loose clearences needs thicker oil

 

I was running 10-40 conventional oil.

 

It was spec'd to .0015, not incredibly loose.

I broke it in on Rotella 15-40 and switched to 10-40 after about 250 miles, then ran another 120 on that and then changed it again to the same 10-40 and put it on the dyno and then it happened on the 12 or 13th pull.

 

sounds like you may have gotten something in an oil passage.
post a pic of the bearing if you can.

 

One and a half thousandths is actually pretty tight, I'm thinkin the 15/40 killed you. Always run the engine manuf. rec. oil thru at least 25,000 mi.. I.E. 5/30 or 10/30, polish all the journals re-Plasti Gauge and replace all the bearings or you'll have more of the same. That mic is worthless for bearing oil clearances there is alot of room for error with that. don't use a synthetic either. Good Luck!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Transpoquick &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One and a half thousandths is actually pretty tight, I'm thinkin the 15/40 killed you. Always run the engine manuf. rec. oil thru at least 25,000 mi.. I.E. 5/30 or 10/30, polish all the journals re-Plasti Gauge and replace all the bearings or you'll have more of the same. That mic is worthless for bearing oil clearances there is alot of room for error with that. don't use a synthetic either. Good Luck!</TD></TR></TABLE>


i have ran 20w50 in a new motor before,unless you took all those plugs
out of the crank and and block and the head U R DEALING WITH A TIME BOMB.
perfect example is a guy told me he built his motor a week ago.i'm looking at
it and look at the oil.the oil is black as hell....NOW ASK YOURSELF WHY.

 

I think you misunderstood what I was stating and that is: one and a half thousandths is not on the low end of the spec but it is a little tight to be running a 15/40.
Also I misunderstood your post too, OP states a dozen dyno pulls and a couple hundred miles thats a pretty long time, I would think that a chunk of garbage would of done that sooner. Sounds like a lubrication problem to me. Nothing like a oil ? to get peoples blood pumping. That is all


Modified by Transpoquick at 4:27 PM 11/17/2007

 

I highly doubt the weight of the oil had anything to do with it...

 

If a hasty bearing selection was done there is always the possibility some of your clearances were tigher or looser then expected. I would also hope that the said bearing (3) was picked out a bit looser (comparatively) then the rest (.0017). Did you break it in untuned while boosting? Lots of factors that could have played a roll. Lots of speculation too.

In any case...

I agree with Transpoquick. I'd get the whole crank polished, possibly align hone your tunnels and start fresh. Clean everything in your block oil touches and always double check those clearances. Also wouldnt hurt to check the runout on your crank.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Transpoquick &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dude WTF are you talkin about? I know where your 3% went 20w 50 is diesel truck oil. Only question I'm asking myself is what your tryin to prove with that useless post. </TD></TR></TABLE>

well that is good your are on your game about the oil.but i was talking
about places that may have not been cleaned in the motor and that people sometimes short cut and look over.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Transpoquick &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think you misunderstood what I was stating and that is: one and a half thousandths is not on the low end of the spec but it is a little tight to be running a 15/40.
Also I misunderstood your post too, OP states a dozen dyno pulls and a couple hundred miles thats a pretty long time, I would think that a chunk of garbage would of done that sooner. Sounds like a lubrication problem to me. Nothing like a oil ? to get peoples blood pumping. That is all
Modified by Transpoquick at 4:27 PM 11/17/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>


it is .0015 not "one and a half thousandths" that's like driving a car that has 100k
on it and saying the same thing when it pops..


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bschulz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If a hasty bearing selection was done there is always the possibility some of your clearances were tigher or looser then expected. I would also hope that the said bearing (3) was picked out a bit looser (comparatively) then the rest (.0017). Did you break it in untuned while boosting? Lots of factors that could have played a roll. Lots of speculation too.

In any case...

I agree with Transpoquick. I'd get the whole crank polished, possibly align hone your tunnels and start fresh. Clean everything in your block oil touches and always double check those clearances. Also wouldnt hurt to check the runout on your crank.</TD></TR></TABLE>


well thats nice you TWO can hold hands while you REBUILD IT. you wouldn't be polishing **** if you spun a bearing or have one knocking.that crank
my friend will have to be turned and start over polish it and see what happens.

 

Obviously you've insulted his way of typing it out.

Back to the topic.

It seems like we all kinda? agree on what happened and what should be done.

Think and/or contaminated oil might have caused it.
Starting fresh with the block, crank, and bearings along with proper oil should solve it.

Not the end all I'd bet, but hopefully it'l help serve the purpose of the original post.

 

Yeah I'm gettin carried away. The name of the forum is engine tech, Theory is also in there, and heck yeah! half of this is speculation. How does anyonoe know anything about someones technical difficulties all we can do is go by what is posted. Broke in on 15/40 rotella(thats farm implement, industrial gear case etc. oil) threw up red flags evrywhere. Was ther something in the oil passages? I don't know. I do know not alot of people pull plugs out of the crank and the like and have no problems and if that was an issue I would imagine it would of started at the initial fire of the motor. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings but from roaming around in here I get the impression some people just like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

 

1700 and dropping will pwn you transpoquick, hes got alot of expierience in high performance honda engine building. The man knows what hes talking about.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Transpoquick &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bwahhhhhhhhhhhahahahaha, .0015 Not one and a half thousandths?, Okay fine I was trying to put it in terms everyone could understand. how about fifteen ten thousandths. heres a Transpoquick tutorial for you .100= tenths, .010=hundreths, .001=thousandths, .0001=tenthousandths. Your so knowledgable? spell this one out .0175, *hint* study the tutorial before you reply don't wanna make yourself look more stupid. I'm on my game about more things than oil.</TD></TR></TABLE>

u r a joke.....lmao but here is your answer nut i will do it your way.READY HERE WE GO........SEVENTEEN AND A HALF THOUSANDTHS

 

Well, after doing some research and talking to some engine builders the Rotella 15-40 was recomended to me. Even read a few articles online about the benifts of using it for initial engine break-in.

I broke it in non-turbo with the same tune as my old setup running the 550cc's, it ran fine and I never got on it until I had it re-tuned.

I did have the block completely gutted, since it was sleeved I took no chances for any garbage or chunks floating around.

As far as turning the crank, the journal looks 100% fine, but still having the machine shop check it out and give the journals a polish to loosen up the tolerances a pinch.

If everyone seems to be against the Rotella, what does everyone recomend?

I was going to use some 10-40 whatever stuff at first, but then switched to the Rotella, so should I just use some 10-40 conventional and call it a day?

Thank you everyone for the input, this isn't my first engine build, just my first honda engine, so I figured I'd ask.

 

10w40 should be fine or the 5w30 is what honda puts in there vtec motors.
i should take that back and say SOME of there motors.

have you tore the motor down and what have you found. pics speak a thousand
words and would help everyone HELP YOU.but here is another guess if it matters.
you could have some dirt or something of the sort under the bearing.i have seen this when the crank is in and turned by hand and WON'T.here is one more theory
for you also.was the motor dry when you done the plasti gauging,maybe your cali-
per was off or not calibrated.but like i said post some pics and that will tell the real
story.

i hope you fined the problem and go back out and make double the power you
were looking for.

 

yeah foreign debri under the bearing can throw off your readings greatly, even a human hair can offset the clearances. Did you have the mains align bored? maybe you accidentally switched main caps from there corresponding places?

 

What does PWN mean? I can't figure it out I'm tryin but....clue me in I've never seen that one before. BTW you are the author of the stupidist sig and bio I have ever read. Whoever told the OP to break his motor in on 15/40 was tryin to band aid there own mistakes.

 

i would like to know how the crank spun in the motor w/no main caps.i have
seen guys put motors together and the crank won't even turn w/o the mains being tq'd,that alone should've thrown up a red flag.in all the honda motors i have ever built. i always run # 3 loose and from what i know from personal exp. is the crank tends to bow * V-SHAPE*,and if you'll notice #5 is always the tightest.i wonder if the person that put this motor together ever spun it with out the rods and if so did it make at least a full rotation before stopping.how well do you trust the machine shop that did the work.

 

Well, we cleaned the backsides of the bearings along with the caps themselves. I left the main caps attached to the girdle after the machine shop align bored it so all should be good there as well.

I'm thinking that maybe the tolerances were just to tight, but we have the motor tore down and the crank will be going to the machine shop this week to be checked out.

I've got a buddy that may be posting up a pic for me, if he gets it up you can take a look at the bearing.

L8r

 

I built the motor.

I trust the machine shop fully as they have spec'd out motors for me in the past with no problems.

I myself mic'd the bearing tolerances and plasti-guaged the motor during assebly.

I did spin the crank when torqued down by hand and all was good, even with the rods/pistons bolted down it would still spin nicely (Obviously harder, but smoothly)

I had never heard of running the center bearing looser but have had a few guys mention it as I ask this question.

 

well something isn't right and needs to be addressed so this does not happen again.what does the motor look like now or have you even tore it apart.all you have to do is look at some of the books for these honda motors and the majority
will tell you to run # 3 looser than the rest.

 

I guess thats the main thing I missed during assembly then, a looser center bearing.

Anyhow, the motor looks great other than this one bearing, so the next question is, do I re-use any of the bearings? Or do I replace all of them? I'm running Calico coated bearings in the motor and (In my opinion) could just replace the one bearing.

The rings and bores look great, all of the rod bearing are perfect and the other mains look new still.








Modified by bjaccord at 12:18 AM 11/24/2007