My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read.
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From: San Diego , CA
My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read.
reason for this thread : For those who plan to do their first short block rebuild such as myself , please don't make the mistake I made and over look ARP rod bolts with the proper torquing procedure. Spend that extra 400 dollars to balance the motor , don't be a dumbass like myself ...
- went to the garage to loosen the rod bolts , I noticed they were barely hand tight.
- rod bolts were stock oem with 200k on them.
- was told by more then a few people to go with ARP
- I didn't do my research therefore I lost a good 1500 dollars...
hard lesson learned.. Although the oil pump can still be the culprit for all of this perhaps the ctr pulley induced the loosening of the rod bolts in regards of lacking a dampener and causing vibrations through the block. 11 thousand miles were on the block.
Pt. 1 engine photos. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2119504
<FONT SIZE="3">Thanks again to everyone who contributed some valuable information on how to build a motor " right ". Much Appreciated ..</FONT>
Modified by Reza^ at 2:40 AM 10/11/2007
- went to the garage to loosen the rod bolts , I noticed they were barely hand tight.
- rod bolts were stock oem with 200k on them.
- was told by more then a few people to go with ARP
- I didn't do my research therefore I lost a good 1500 dollars...
hard lesson learned.. Although the oil pump can still be the culprit for all of this perhaps the ctr pulley induced the loosening of the rod bolts in regards of lacking a dampener and causing vibrations through the block. 11 thousand miles were on the block.
Pt. 1 engine photos. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=2119504
<FONT SIZE="3">Thanks again to everyone who contributed some valuable information on how to build a motor " right ". Much Appreciated ..</FONT>
Modified by Reza^ at 2:40 AM 10/11/2007
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From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
After seeing that rod bearing, I am leaning towards the theory that the bottom end went first, then took out the head 
Was it knocking at all before it let go?
Was it knocking at all before it let go?
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Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Anti-Drama Queens »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so u did u use arp rod bolts? im guessing no, is what you're trying to say?</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reza^ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> reason for this thread : For those who plan to do their first short block rebuild such as myself , please don't make the mistake I made and over look ARP rod bolts with the proper torquing procedure. Spend that extra 400 dollars to balance the motor , don't be a dumbass like myself ...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
key word " over look " aka , skimp out on . Not buy . Ignore. Pass on that.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reza^ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> reason for this thread : For those who plan to do their first short block rebuild such as myself , please don't make the mistake I made and over look ARP rod bolts with the proper torquing procedure. Spend that extra 400 dollars to balance the motor , don't be a dumbass like myself ...
</TD></TR></TABLE>
key word " over look " aka , skimp out on . Not buy . Ignore. Pass on that.
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From: r4, mars
Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
i think he said in the last thread it wasnt pinging...
but i believed the bottom end went out first too...
but i believed the bottom end went out first too...
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Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
you cannot be considered a dumbass comrade...as long as its a learning experience **** happens with or without arp rod bolts always good to move on and learn from previous encounters...sorry to see that happen all the best in the future...cheers 
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From: back woods, va, usa
Re: (SoCal EJ1)
i think it let go more because of detonation and/or lack of oil. that thing got hot and look like it was beat to death.
i tore my friends block apart after he snaped a rod and the bearings still looked good. i think that motor had something wrong before the rod snaped.
still good idea though to always replace rod bolts with alot of miles on them. hope you dont give up and good luck on your next build
i tore my friends block apart after he snaped a rod and the bearings still looked good. i think that motor had something wrong before the rod snaped.
still good idea though to always replace rod bolts with alot of miles on them. hope you dont give up and good luck on your next build
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Re: (Alchemist)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Alchemist »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lesson learned </TD></TR></TABLE>
R you Serious is right...
When I heard the block knock before that run I should have trusted my instinct and left the car off.....
**** is pretty depressing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>R you Serious is right...
When I heard the block knock before that run I should have trusted my instinct and left the car off.....
**** is pretty depressing.
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Re: (b20beast978)
http://www.theoldone.com/archi...r.htm
Date: 22-Jul-99 10:48 AM
Author: TOO
Subject: Mr. Primodreams,A Question Of Balance
Bad Vibrations
I'll post a more complete rendition of this on the too site shortly, but let me begin by saying that it's good to be back and I'm only here to expressly address some questions that need some "good" answers. I am not here to provide schedules or any information regarding the blower program. The topic is that of aftermarket crank pulleys.
Let me begin by saying that we have always called the pulley on the accessory drive end on the Honda cranks Harmonic Balancers. People never seemed to understand what we were talking about and so the word "pulley" was frequently used to avoid confusion. If you look carefully at a Honda "pulley", you'll find that it's not a single piece of metal. Typically, there's a nodular iron or steel hub and another "ring" of iron or steel surrounding it containing the belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which is highly compressed and sandwiched between them. Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over the years have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine "feel" smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and especially in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses, which are very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine produces a shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in the case of the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses for each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a pulse, it causes the internal components to do a rapid acceleration-deceleration event. When you consider the mass of all the internal components and visualize all these parts stopping and starting during their reciprocating and rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes" tend to make it all the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for any length of time. The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber coupling so that, when the individual "spikes" occur, the inner portion may move with the crank, but the rubber connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes or pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it tends to want to stay in motion at the speed that it's traveling and that's why it can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and other internal parts. To put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents the individual pulses from destroying everything in the engine.
A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the Pro Stock engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to weigh less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type" and total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic inch range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in high gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that were "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside from cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large hunks were also finding their way into the grandstands and there were numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA immediately mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that point on. Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and function properly, but the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who were tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet "balancers" immediately and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to race. All of a sudden, racers were getting only 10 passes from their crankshafts, which had previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought the cranks were "bad", but after destroying engine after engine, a few knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually was coming from and several companies that were capable of making functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night. They are all still in the business to this day and their units are actually much better than the factory units of years before, as they are made from premium materials and optimized for high rpm applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin to wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines.
If the balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e. the power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the the pulleys that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer, we leave them intact. This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced hub substantialy, but the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and function correctly. I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a blower or alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually work properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would need to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that it would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of the the driven parts in short order. It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is", if you're running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass can also increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of vibration will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the flywheel,it's absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or the harmonic balancer.
I realize that there's a lot of hype out there where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize crank pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to the diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in the process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge on your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator, power steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow the speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a large diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be designed to fit "over" the stock balancer. Perhaps, someone will begin to make some good quality "functional" balancers some day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully, as some good looks and minimal power gains can be off set by a ruined engine.
I'm sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas and none of what I've said is the least bit politically motivated.
And yes, any engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin the crank driven oil pump and a whole lot more.
………………………….T.O.O. ………………………
Date: 22-Jul-99 10:48 AM
Author: TOO
Subject: Mr. Primodreams,A Question Of Balance
Bad Vibrations
I'll post a more complete rendition of this on the too site shortly, but let me begin by saying that it's good to be back and I'm only here to expressly address some questions that need some "good" answers. I am not here to provide schedules or any information regarding the blower program. The topic is that of aftermarket crank pulleys.
Let me begin by saying that we have always called the pulley on the accessory drive end on the Honda cranks Harmonic Balancers. People never seemed to understand what we were talking about and so the word "pulley" was frequently used to avoid confusion. If you look carefully at a Honda "pulley", you'll find that it's not a single piece of metal. Typically, there's a nodular iron or steel hub and another "ring" of iron or steel surrounding it containing the belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which is highly compressed and sandwiched between them. Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over the years have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine "feel" smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and especially in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses, which are very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine produces a shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in the case of the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses for each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a pulse, it causes the internal components to do a rapid acceleration-deceleration event. When you consider the mass of all the internal components and visualize all these parts stopping and starting during their reciprocating and rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes" tend to make it all the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for any length of time. The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber coupling so that, when the individual "spikes" occur, the inner portion may move with the crank, but the rubber connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes or pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it tends to want to stay in motion at the speed that it's traveling and that's why it can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and other internal parts. To put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents the individual pulses from destroying everything in the engine.
A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the Pro Stock engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to weigh less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type" and total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic inch range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in high gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that were "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside from cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large hunks were also finding their way into the grandstands and there were numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA immediately mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that point on. Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and function properly, but the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who were tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet "balancers" immediately and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to race. All of a sudden, racers were getting only 10 passes from their crankshafts, which had previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought the cranks were "bad", but after destroying engine after engine, a few knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually was coming from and several companies that were capable of making functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night. They are all still in the business to this day and their units are actually much better than the factory units of years before, as they are made from premium materials and optimized for high rpm applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin to wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines.
If the balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e. the power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the the pulleys that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer, we leave them intact. This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced hub substantialy, but the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and function correctly. I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a blower or alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually work properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would need to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that it would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of the the driven parts in short order. It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is", if you're running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass can also increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of vibration will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the flywheel,it's absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or the harmonic balancer.
I realize that there's a lot of hype out there where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize crank pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to the diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in the process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge on your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator, power steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow the speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a large diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be designed to fit "over" the stock balancer. Perhaps, someone will begin to make some good quality "functional" balancers some day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully, as some good looks and minimal power gains can be off set by a ruined engine.
I'm sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas and none of what I've said is the least bit politically motivated.
And yes, any engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin the crank driven oil pump and a whole lot more.
………………………….T.O.O. ………………………
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From: San Diego
Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
the only way i think this(spun bearing)>
to cause this(drop valve and smash cylinder head)>
....would be if the bearing was completely gone(which as you can see it was) so far that at tdc the piston was coming out of the deck ....this would decrease piston to valve clearances to almost nothing...eventually causing the piston smack an exhaust valve causing the head of the valve to break off in the camber....then smashing the piston...then stamping the head 5000X... and lastly the lump of piston wedged between the counter weight and wrist pin causing the rod to break off.....that my story and im sticking to it
....
to cause this(drop valve and smash cylinder head)>
....would be if the bearing was completely gone(which as you can see it was) so far that at tdc the piston was coming out of the deck ....this would decrease piston to valve clearances to almost nothing...eventually causing the piston smack an exhaust valve causing the head of the valve to break off in the camber....then smashing the piston...then stamping the head 5000X... and lastly the lump of piston wedged between the counter weight and wrist pin causing the rod to break off.....that my story and im sticking to it
....
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From: socal, ca, US
Re: (Reza^)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Reza^ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
R you Serious is right...
When I heard the block knock before that run I should have trusted my instinct and left the car off.....
**** is pretty depressing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
cheer up Reza...what's your next build going to be?? just make sure to use ARP rod bolts everywhere on the next project.
R you Serious is right...
When I heard the block knock before that run I should have trusted my instinct and left the car off.....
**** is pretty depressing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
cheer up Reza...what's your next build going to be?? just make sure to use ARP rod bolts everywhere on the next project.
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From: So Cal
Re: (acydphryck)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by acydphryck »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just make sure to use ARP rod bolts everywhere on the next project.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you use ARP rod bolts for the cam caps too?
Can you use ARP rod bolts for the cam caps too?
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From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Re: (Combustion Contraption)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Combustion Contraption »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Can you use ARP rod bolts for the cam caps too?</TD></TR></TABLE>
And for the valve cover
I like Rusty's autopsy analysis. Sounds very plausible.
And for the valve cover
I like Rusty's autopsy analysis. Sounds very plausible.
Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,583
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From: Clairemont, CA, USA
Re: (b19coupe)
dam sucks bro......kinda looks like mine when i blew up my old ls-v in the coupe. except i did have arp's. (threw the rod out the block, stock ls rod + 10,000rpm overrev = boom.)
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From: Whitby, Ontario, Canada
Here's my rebuild thread if you want a good understanding of the whole process. Warning the thread is very picture intensive so don't open it if your computer can't handle it.
Here you go https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1607658
Just post if you have any questions.
Here you go https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1607658
Just post if you have any questions.
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From: City of Sharks
Re: (wildoutwhitegsr)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildoutwhitegsr »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here's my rebuild thread if you want a good understanding of the whole process. Warning the thread is very picture intensive so don't open it if your computer can't handle it.
Here you go https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1607658
Just post if you have any questions. </TD></TR></TABLE>
wow, great thread. good luck on your new build reza, probably going to be bigger and better
Here you go https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1607658
Just post if you have any questions.
</TD></TR></TABLE>wow, great thread. good luck on your new build reza, probably going to be bigger and better
* B A N N E D *
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
Re: (Alchemist)
itll buff out chrome it up a little and throw some jb weld here and there and dump it off on some 92-00 civic forum newb jk
good luck with the build man. well now maybe you can go get some eagle rods and cp pistons?
jk good luck with the build man. well now maybe you can go get some eagle rods and cp pistons?
* B A N N E D *
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 590
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Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
not to make worse of a situtation.....but.....he is a case of irony. when i came into this thread the engine restorer ad popped up right next you your motor pic XD
Re: My Blown Motor Pt. II . rod removal . For those who plan to do their first rebuild. Please read
The thing that I find sad is that Rez has taken the time to create a thread, post pictures, and explain to people why not to skimp out. Yet there will <U>always</U> be those cheap asses that don't want to spend an extra couple hundred bucks, motor goes boom, and then they start pointing the finger at the builder/product failure etc etc....
Wack
Wack