About a few weeks ago i just picked up my car from a dyno tuning shop and was not really happy with the numbers. The set up is a 82mm gsr, pr3 pistons, supertech flat valves, blox p1 camshafts, blox manifold, 65mm throttle body, jdm itr 4-1 header, 310 rc injectors, 255lph fuel pump. The head had been resurfaced .015 as well. The car put down 174.4 whp and 121lb of tourque. I know the header is holding it back but can it be holding it back that much? Im kind of questioning the tune a lil bit b/c i dont think the tuner even touched the cam gears or played around with them at all. The idle is pretty rough (kind of expected) but didnt know it would be really rough. The distributor is turned all the way towards the firewall and the car also hesitates as well. The tourque curve and hp curve doesnt look good either. The hp dies out at around 7,500 rpm and the tourque curve starts out going up then starts its downfall at around 4,000 rpm and keeps on going down. I thought it was supposed to stay flat. I noticed on the a/f graph..the tuner tuned for 12.48 f/r for full throttle.

So im just looking for opinions. Do you guys think the car is making the power it should be b/c of the header? or is the tune not that good? the compression on the motor is 250psi all across and doesnt smoke. So the motor im guessing is pretty healthy.

 

A tuner can help or hurt a car only so much. If the HP dies out or flattens out at a certain RPM, it indicates a restriction. Cams too small, a header/exhaust system that does not flow well enough, intake manifold restriction, poor intake choice, or the head does not flow well enough at high RPM. Or a combination of the above things. Everything has to work well together to achieve optimum results from a motor.

Cam gear tuning can net you peak HP gains, but don't expect 10+ HP. More often than not, cam gear tuning will smooth out dips in the torque curve and net you a better overall graph. Once you reach a certain level, with all of the right parts, that's when your head becomes critical. A stock B16/GSR head will become a restriction at higher RPM. A properly ported head with a good valve job can be the difference between making 200 HP or hitting 215.

Customers tend to focus on peak numbers, but the quality of the tune should be measured in overall gains and driveability.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Anti-Drama Queens &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">About a few weeks ago i just picked up my car from a dyno tuning shop and was not really happy with the numbers. The set up is a 82mm gsr, pr3 pistons, supertech flat valves, blox p1 camshafts, blox manifold, 65mm throttle body, jdm itr 4-1 header, 310 rc injectors, 255lph fuel pump. The head had been resurfaced .015 as well. The car put down 174.4 whp and 121lb of tourque. I know the header is holding it back but can it be holding it back that much? Im kind of questioning the tune a lil bit b/c i dont think the tuner even touched the cam gears or played around with them at all. The idle is pretty rough (kind of expected) but didnt know it would be really rough. The distributor is turned all the way towards the firewall and the car also hesitates as well. The tourque curve and hp curve doesnt look good either. The hp dies out at around 7,500 rpm and the tourque curve starts out going up then starts its downfall at around 4,000 rpm and keeps on going down. I thought it was supposed to stay flat. I noticed on the a/f graph..the tuner tuned for 12.48 f/r for full throttle.

So im just looking for opinions. Do you guys think the car is making the power it should be b/c of the header? or is the tune not that good? the compression on the motor is 250psi all across and doesnt smoke. So the motor im guessing is pretty healthy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Honestly, I think those numbers are right where they should be....especially since he tuned for 12.5 AFR's for WOT. That's totally not necessary. 13-13.5 is what he should have tuned for....13:1 for reliability, 13.5:1 for power.

-What intake/filter are you using? What diameter is it? Believe it or not, this can be a difference in 5-10 HP.
-Did your tuner degree your cams or make adjustments to the cam gears?
-I don't understand why your distributor is turned toward the firewall (advanced) if your tuner is capable of tuning ignition maps.
-Your idle shouldn't be rough one bit w/ those cams. You should be running a 14:1-15:1 AFR at idle...more ideally 14.7:1. That in conjunction with having your cams degreed in, should alleviate all if not most of your idle problems.
-JDM ITR 4-1 header....nothing else needs to be said. Switch it out for a Tri-Y header and watch those numbers sky rocket.
-What size cat/piping/muffler are you running?
-Is your throttle body a straight 65mm or a tapered version?
-How many miles are on the motor? (ring wear, bearing wear, etc.) These can slightly affect power numbers.

Post your graph!

 

P1's idle pretty rough with stock timing. In general, I have set idle at about 18 to 20 degrees for best results.

Overall, I don't know what your expectations were but 174 whp is pretty good from that set-up. That's about 15 hp better than a stock type R. A 13.1:1 A/F will get you about 180 whp.

Honesty, I would get a good port job for the head and port the manifold (your self) and check into the collector size of the header. If the collector has less than 2.5" diameter then get that mod.

 

it has the aem hybrid cai ..which has the 3" piping with the aem filter. He said he played with the cam gears a lil bit but noticed no power gain or something along those lines. And yes the distributor is all the way towards the firewall...i find that strange. He said he tuned the idle a/f to about 16:1 just to get the cams to idle. I have a cat on it..its a tad bit smaller than 2.5...just a tiny bit...into a 2.5 ktell exhaust into a vibrant 2.5 straight through muffler. Its a maxbore throttle body which is tapered...the motor has probably about 200 miles on it.

I gotta find my graph...and it was dynoed on a dynomite. Im not sure if those read high or low..the car feels alright, decent power but i just thought there would be at least more tourque and a lil bit more hp. And yes i do have a rage try y sitting here waiting to be installed

 

Quick question where did you get your car tuned at??

 

i wont state it on the thread..but uve been PMed

 

I think the hp is kinda low. i got a lot less mods and hit more hp i think its the tuning, not to hate but i had a bad tune and after i tuned it again i gain about 15 hp.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Anti-Drama Queens &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it has the aem hybrid cai ..which has the 3" piping with the aem filter. He said he played with the cam gears a lil bit but noticed no power gain or something along those lines. And yes the distributor is all the way towards the firewall...i find that strange. He said he tuned the idle a/f to about 16:1 just to get the cams to idle. I have a cat on it..its a tad bit smaller than 2.5...just a tiny bit...into a 2.5 ktell exhaust into a vibrant 2.5 straight through muffler. Its a maxbore throttle body which is tapered...the motor has probably about 200 miles on it.

I gotta find my graph...and it was dynoed on a dynomite. Im not sure if those read high or low..the car feels alright, decent power but i just thought there would be at least more tourque and a lil bit more hp. And yes i do have a rage try y sitting here waiting to be installed</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a dangerous A/F at idle. You should have him bring it down to at least 15:1. And I have a hard time believing that he didn't find any power in moving the cam gears. Aftermarket cams are rarely dialed in at the right degree specs. Did he degree them?

 

no the cams were not degreed in

 

he also told me that a 16:1 a/f at idle is not a problem...that i only have to worry if it was at full throttle..i also notice like kind of like a "putt"(hesistation) when i full throttle in like 5th gear when im trying to pass someone on the highway

 

i think thats very lean even at idle. like bambam said u should start out at 14.7. some motors with big cams even like it a little richer. do u have a graph of the a/f map.

 

i have it around somewhere..but gotta find it

 

Youve already got alot of solid advice in this thread, but i wanted to add a few things...

You indicated you were concerned the header may be costing you alot of power. It isnt. Maybe a couple, im talking 2-3 at the most on that setup.

Now lets play a little game.

Cylinder Head & CamshaftsYou mentioned the head has been milled .015. And thats just by you, who knows what was done to it prior to it being in your possession (unless youve had it its entire life-span.) The point is, milling changes cam timing, you said the cams were not degreed in, theyre probably waaay off their reccomended LCA's. If properly dialed in, youre probably looking at somewhere around 4-5 peak HP increase.

Ignition Timing There is no reason for the distributor to be kicked in either direction as far as it can go, when you have engine management that allows you to tune ignition timing. My guess is, again, this part of the tune is waaay off. Proper ignition timing will smooth out the TQ curve, but probably wont increase youre peak HP # too much. We'll say 1hp.

Intake Manifold & Throttle Body If i remember correctly, the Blox manifold isnt set up for a 65mm throttle body right "out of the box" and a mismatch between the IM and the TB right here would show up in high RPM breathing capability. We'll say 2hp.

Just by correcting these issues, i can see an easy 8-10hp increase on the top end, which puts you into the 180's. Taking advice from guys like b19coupe and bambam will only lead you to more HP as well. Stick with it, it doesnt always come easy, but IC engines are no mystery, the answer to your lack of performance is probably not just one thing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bambam &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Honestly, I think those numbers are right where they should be....especially since he tuned for 12.5 AFR's for WOT. That's totally not necessary. 13-13.5 is what he should have tuned for....13:1 for reliability, 13.5:1 for power.

-What intake/filter are you using? What diameter is it? Believe it or not, this can be a difference in 5-10 HP.
-Did your tuner degree your cams or make adjustments to the cam gears?
-I don't understand why your distributor is turned toward the firewall (advanced) if your tuner is capable of tuning ignition maps.
-Your idle shouldn't be rough one bit w/ those cams. You should be running a 14:1-15:1 AFR at idle...more ideally 14.7:1. That in conjunction with having your cams degreed in, should alleviate all if not most of your idle problems.
-JDM ITR 4-1 header....nothing else needs to be said. Switch it out for a Tri-Y header and watch those numbers sky rocket.
-What size cat/piping/muffler are you running?
-Is your throttle body a straight 65mm or a tapered version?
-How many miles are on the motor? (ring wear, bearing wear, etc.) These can slightly affect power numbers.

Post your graph!</TD></TR></TABLE>


sorry to jump in but how much different you will see from a jdm itr header to a hytech header?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 401B18TEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


sorry to jump in but how much different you will see from a jdm itr header to a hytech header?</TD></TR></TABLE>

w/ tuning.....who knows...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Anti-Drama Queens &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">he also told me that a 16:1 a/f at idle is not a problem...that i only have to worry if it was at full throttle..i also notice like kind of like a "putt"(hesistation) when i full throttle in like 5th gear when im trying to pass someone on the highway</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like it's igntion related.

 

most likely he "dialed" the air fuel then went and put the ignition where it made most power and didnt touch the lo - hi ign maps. Anyways advancing the dist all the way back is a band aid in this case... most likely the base timing is foked up and low in the 11's. retune the car somewhere else. Most likely u will see a nigh and day difference from a real tune, at WOT and at cruising speeds.

 

yeah i plan on setting up an appointment with tbone for a tune pretty soon. Another thing, the car runs fine , idles a lil rough ...but if a/c is on ...the car would stall out which i find weird as well

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Anti-Drama Queens &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but if a/c is on ...the car would stall out which i find weird as well</TD></TR></TABLE>


ELD problem!

 

yea, i have noticed that 16:1 at idle is just about the "breakup" point. anywhere below that and it will idle very smooth.

and i could bet that its hesitating in 5th gear because its too lean at that certain load/rpm point. If you have "per gear" fuel compensation then you can have him fix this problem as well if its the only gear it does it in. Most of the time, these hesitations that people feel are due to conditions of too lean a mixture.

 

what does ELD stand for? i think it does it in 3rd and sometimes 4th too

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Anti-Drama Queens &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what does ELD stand for? i think it does it in 3rd and sometimes 4th too</TD></TR></TABLE>

electronic load detection

appears that you need to run more fuel in general then, not considering WOT

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

electronic load detection

appears that you need to run more fuel in general then, not considering WOT</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Is this lower than your previous same sized motor or you comparing numbers from dynos which you have no assurance of what people represent as "mild", "stock", "low compression" "not leaf blown".