mods:
usdm h22a1 with 119k miles (10:1)
aem CAi
aem Pullies
RSR exhaust
Camp1320 header
skunk1 pro1s
skunk2 cam gears
supertech springs and retainers
oem valves
no egr or balance shaft belt
hondata s200 (first street tuned, then dyno tuned. vtec @ 4900)

things to notice:
-the tq curve (peak tq is way too low)
-the dip between 5200-6200
-since then i have removed iabs and installed blacktrax im spacer
-i now trap 1 mph lower n the 1/4 (used to trap 95 now i trap 93.9)
-comp test is 215 220 225 225

should i get it retuned by someone else or do u think this is an internal problem?

here is a shot of my high cam timing table

the af ratio is "dead on" at 13-13.1



Modified by snzh22 at 11:11 PM 8/30/2007

 

if anyone has any tips to offer him, i would really appreciate it. We have been discussing his problem for the past few weeks. He bought the blacktrax plate from me for really cheap. I was thinking this would solve his problem, but it didnt.
Then i thought maybe the tune, but i looked at his timing charts and there arent any points which would induce the kinda losses he is seeing and his AFR is nice.

 

did the engine really made the most power in that dip from that timing table? cause something as meaningless as cam degree... but from what i can see, the engine didnt like much that jump from 30 to 32... if u see the actual dyno graph the dip occurs almost at the intervals or the extrapolation of that interval. But then again i have seen some weird things like some of those dips that sometimes cant really be cured... each engine is different, thats all i can say with what u presented me with.

 

i wish i could understand the timing table but im assuming that ur looking at the 0.8 column and going down. i think he said he added timing there to try to get rid of the dip. maybe timing needed to be taken out?

 

if he added and nothing happened, the next obvious step is to take away some...

did someone degreed in the cams or they were even messed with at the dyno?

 

i dont think the cams were degreed when installed but the cam gears were messed with at the dyno and the only results seen were shifts in the power band (the whole graph moved right or left).

 

take the exhaust off and take that im spacer out. i have dyno'd it 20 times, no spacer/no iab's makes the most power. also try taking the air filter off. i have seen 15hp on an h22 with a shitty air filter.

hte graph is jagged and overall shitty looking. i'd suggest a basic tune up.

do you still have a cat on there?? take that off as well. h22's LOVE an open exhaust. 3 inch ftw

thats an OLD pos usdm h22 also, i wouldnt expect too much from it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by snzh22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i dont think the cams were degreed when installed but the cam gears were messed with at the dyno and the only results seen were shifts in the power band (the whole graph moved right or left).</TD></TR></TABLE>
bingo.

 

usually pro1's work best straight up from what i have seen...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">take the exhaust off and take that im spacer out. i have dyno'd it 20 times, no spacer/no iab's makes the most power. also try taking the air filter off. i have seen 15hp on an h22 with a shitty air filter.

hte graph is jagged and overall shitty looking. i'd suggest a basic tune up.

do you still have a cat on there?? take that off as well. h22's LOVE an open exhaust. 3 inch ftw

thats an OLD pos usdm h22 also, i wouldnt expect too much from it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that doesnt explain his huge power loss prior and after the crossover. His peak torque is BELOW VTEC. dont believe an exhaust, filter or cam degree would fix that.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">take the exhaust off and take that im spacer out. i have dyno'd it 20 times, no spacer/no iab's makes the most power.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i know in this guy's case he has the blacktrax im spacer, but in my case i've taken the iab plates out but left the stock spacer there, do you think it'd be better if i took out the entire spacer completely?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ri_rv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i know in this guy's case he has the blacktrax im spacer, but in my case i've taken the iab plates out but left the stock spacer there, do you think it'd be better if i took out the entire spacer completely?</TD></TR></TABLE>

read what he said. That is what he believes. I happen to believe it also, but i do not have dyno results for it.

 

ya but i wasn't sure if he was talking about the blacktrax spacer or the stock one? no biggie, i'll just take it out. thanks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ri_rv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ya but i wasn't sure if he was talking about the blacktrax spacer or the stock one? no biggie, i'll just take it out. thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>

either way its going to have the same effect.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

that doesnt explain his huge power loss prior and after the crossover. His peak torque is BELOW VTEC. dont believe an exhaust, filter or cam degree would fix that.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Blake when you do cams you rely on making more power by flowing more air efficiently through the engine, if you go bigger on cams but don't let the air flow, the backup of excess exhaust not being able to get out, and intake being restricted, is going to hurt worse than switching back to stock cams would.

For an example, I had an electronic cutout on my car before and after I did the crower cams. Before the cams I could rev nearly freely all the way up to 7k, after the cams I couldn't even hit vtec with the cutout closed. It would just choke it up like it was a rev limiter. And it wasn't making any more or less tq at the x-over before/after the cams.

I would listen to jdogg on this one dude, uncork that thing and see how she does.

 

uncork what tho? he is running a header that is supposed to be the latest hit and the exhaust isnt bad other than being chambered to keep noise down.

Check out the Pro1 dyno thats in this forum and compare the graphs. They look nothing the same and relatively the same mods.

he has a 1000 rpm window where he is simply missing power. And he is missing power in the meat of his power band and is the reason he is running so slow at the track. He is landing and damn near his lowest torque point giving him no momentum. I would think that if the motor wasnt breathing well, the power loss would be linear and wouldnt try to pick the power back up near the peak of the RPM's.

 

If it isn't breathing well, the loss will grow as rpms go up.

The loss in the meat of the powerband is really odd. It looks a lot like my car did when we put too much overlap in with the cam gears, made better peak, but killed the midrange.

I would be concerned with the bumpiness of teh curve too, get some new wires/plugs/fuel filter and try again

OP: are you absolutely sure that the cam gears didn't slip?

 

just for reference here is the other pro1 dyno



vtec is like 5.5k
this is with basically a stock header, open probably though, flat valves, and an intake.

I would check the cams to make sure they're actually pro1s, this dyno shows a big hump in power where you have your loss.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mgags7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it isn't breathing well, the loss will grow as rpms go up.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


exactly, and thats not the case. Whatever is holding back his midrange is killing his top end, but not proportionally.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


exactly, and thats not the case. Whatever is holding back his midrange is killing his top end, but not proportionally.</TD></TR></TABLE>

good point

 

there are a few things he didnt mention. One of them being the cam part numbers. They are not the same as what is listed on the site so says the OP. he called skunk2 and they said they are the Pro1 cams.......i dont believe he asked him why the PN was different but that is something to speculate.

possibly mix matched cams?

 

I would go with jdogg's advice, esp 3 in exhaust. Also, I would set the vtec cross over higher ~ 5.5 to 5.7k.

To me it looks like the motor is being choked in vtec.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there are a few things he didnt mention. One of them being the cam part numbers. They are not the same as what is listed on the site so says the OP. he called skunk2 and they said they are the Pro1 cams.......i dont believe he asked him why the PN was different but that is something to speculate.

possibly mix matched cams?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sketchy if you ask me. I would try to mic them with the valve cover off, you could probably rig something up to work. Maybe use a little block or metal to go between areas you can't reach with the mic, then subtract their measurement from the total.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mar778c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would go with jdogg's advice, esp 3 in exhaust. Also, I would set the vtec cross over higher ~ 5.5 to 5.7k.

To me it looks like the motor is being choked in vtec.</TD></TR></TABLE>

although i agree with the vtec transition, NRG tech moved the crossover all around and nothing fixed the curve.

come on now, do you REALLY think a larger exhaust is holding all this power back? Whats so different about his mods from others who made great power? Why would he need to upgrade to a 3" to have a nice curve? Seems as though all that would do is make the graph the same shape, just more power.

if there was anything keeping it from breathing, i would say a clogged cat. But usually a clogged cat will glow red.

 

check valve lash.
change fuel filter and tune-up, clean injectors
check all grounds first. it that doesn't help then test it open header and add a larger throttle body.