Hey All,

I got an F20B put into my 97 Accord LX. Problem is, first engine that came from hmotors was bad. The second one came... costing more money for labor on the install... but it has an idle surge and won't go away. Problem was, I let the guy hold on to my car for like 3 and a half months and it never got resolved... so I'm on my own.

I finally went and got my car and drove it home. It drives ok at speed, but at idle it surges between 1000-2500 rpm constantly. This is not just about idle surge though... it smells like exhaust fumes in the car when I am sitting in traffic, and it smokes a little at the high point of the surge while idling. Not enough smoke to tell white or grey. While driving at low speeds, it makes a puckita-puckita-puckita noise like an old VW. On the freeway its fine, though I did hear a sharp metallic sound like 'punk' at one point. When I popped the hood later, there is brown fluid sprayed all over the passenger side rear part of the engine bay. I didn't drive over anything and there has been no rain. I also noticed two green plugs (they look electrical) that are not attached to anything and don't connect to each other.

Also strange... I had the car idling once I got home, and with my head under the hood, I could hear a loud wooshing sound from the intake. I know that is definitely not normal.

Please help... I am obviously a nub, but any advice would be great. Pics of the engine bay are below. Any thoughts on that oily brown stuff would be greatly appreciated. Haven't yet tried all of mgags' idle surge tricks... but I am working on it! The mechanic claims to have checked IACV and FITV and all else...

By the way, no CEL, but I think the CEL is working. I re-plugged my old stock ECU and it ran rough for about 5 seconds before throwing a code. Currently running the PCB ECU for the manual F20B. Tranny is a stock F22B2 tranny.

Thanks,
Tom

 

bump

 

Check to see if your IACV is working.

 

take the vac line off the egr valve or if you have one of the funny completly electric egr valves, unplug the connector on it

 

If your hearing that loud of a noise I would first check for a vacume leak at the IM. Take some brake spray with the car running and spray it around the base of the mani. If it stops surging and smooths out replace the IM gasket. Also check to see that the coolant lines are hooked up to the IAC vavle and that there's enough coolant in the radiator. Just a little low and the IAC can get an air pocket and not work correctly.
If I remember right the F20b has a 3-wire IAC and the F22b2 has a 2 wire. If you have the 3-wire ver. Then there is no fast idle valve, its built into the IAC.

Those 2 plugs judging by where there at may be for a) the v-tec, b) the fan or coolant temp switch. I hope these may be of some help.

 

Thanks All! I really appreciate it. I'll keep you posted on what I find.

Of course... any other suggestions are still appreciated. One note... once the car gets really warm - like after driving around town for 20-30 minutes... the idle surges much more (1000-2500), but the car otherwise drives perfectly, and of course, so much more power with the F20B!

Before it gets warm, it sputters like crazy and sometimes I hear popping noises from the exhaust. It is also completely gutless before it gets warm... like my 0-20 time is a full minute, and during that time, no difference between WOT and half throttle.

Just thought some more info would be useful.

THanks again,
Tom

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97LXF20B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It is also completely gutless before it gets warm... like my 0-20 time is a full minute, and during that time, no difference between WOT and half throttle. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Check your timing belt. It sounds like it may be off by one or more teeth.

 

thanks Turbowa,

I'll check it out. I just got back from vacation, and being a student, I am embarassingly broke. So broke that I can't even buy some carb cleaner to spray down the IM and check for vacuum leaks until I get my financial aid check. Hopefully early next week!

Progress thus far:
1. Checked IACV - unplugged during surging idle. No change.
2. Checked FITV. Per mgags idle surge FAQ, this is done by plugging one of the holes (?) inside the throttle body. I think you are right about FITV and IACV being integrated - they are in the same spot. In any case, I plugged one hole or the other and no change in the surging idle. Plugged em both and the engine died. Big surprise! LOL.
3. While driving, took it up into VTEC once or twice once everything had smoothed out. It definitely works! So I think that eliminates the green plug for VTEC?
4. checked all vacuum lines. All plugged in snug. same goes for all coolant lines, including to IACV. still need to check vacuum lines for leaks with carb cleaner.
5. coolant lines good to IACV. radiator already full to the brim with coolant.

Obviously left to do:
spray down IM with carb cleaner/brakleen and check for bubbles/leaks.
clean out TB.
check tbelt.

even if no bubbles in that area... if problem isnt solved still a good idea to replace IM gasket right? which one should I use? one for an H22?

another question - what would it be that makes it run so poorly when it's cold, and then run perfect (except the idle surge) when warm? almost seems like it has to be some problem with a temperature sensor or idle controller, right?

 

I had the same problems when I did my f20 swap. It ended up being the 3 wire iac. I had an adapter plate made and used a 2wire iac from a 93 accord and its idled fine ever since. As for the smoke, the smell, and the poping noise (misfire) its prob from the motor running rich but I still have yet to solve this problem in mine. I'll take a look tommorow and try and figure out what the plugs are for.

 

interesting... can you tell me more about the adapter plate? did you have to do some kind of custom wiring? is this something that would work better with a new throttle body to match up with other accord iacv/fitv?

and yes... it's definitely running super rich. counting a bunch of idle time, i have gone thru 3/4 tank in only 122 miles. in fact, it's spitting out a bunch of gas fumes through the vents if I turn them on at all.... I actually have an oily film on the inside of my windshield!! driving with the windows down for now...

thanks again for everyone's help on this

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDogg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">take the vac line off the egr valve or if you have one of the funny completly electric egr valves, unplug the connector on it

</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Its basically a blockoff plate with a couple of holes drilled in it to mount the 2wire iac to the plate that a friend made for me. As for the wiring i just played around with the 3 wires untill i found out what would run the 2 wire iac.

As for the two unused connectors the one on the left is deff a water temp sensor. Did you change the front neck off of your old motor onto the f20? If not the f20 doesn't have the second senser thats why its unused. The other i'm not to sure about it was getting dark when i got home. I'll look again tommorow.

 

jdogg - yes... I am gonna handle the egr valve. btw, lots of respect for all the knowledge you have posted in all the various forums here.

96acc - sorry for the newb question but what is the front neck?

... exciting news! I am supposed to finally get money tomorrow! all work begins in earnest.

 

The pictures look like my bay when the CV-boot broke.

 

Where in CA are you located? If you are near me, I can help you out with your problems.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by toyomatt84 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The pictures look like my bay when the CV-boot broke.</TD></TR></TABLE>

thanks for the input .
definitely one more thing to check once I get the engine running better.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid96EK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Where in CA are you located? If you are near me, I can help you out with your problems.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Berkeley


Modified by 97LXF20B at 11:32 AM 8/21/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97LXF20B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

thanks for the input .
definitely one more thing to check once I get the engine running better.

Berkeley


Modified by 97LXF20B at 11:32 AM 8/21/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

That sucks. I am in Sacramento.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid96EK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That sucks. I am in Sacramento. </TD></TR></TABLE>

No worries bro. Good lookin' out.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by toyomatt84 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The pictures look like my bay when the CV-boot broke.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right you are my friend. Checked it today - gotta replace the CV boot.

OK... status update -

I had one of my mechanic buddies come out and look at it with me today. Turns out I have an exhaust leak and a vacuum leak... but the exhaust leak is so loud that we couldn't find the vacuum leak. So... first things first - new header. Gonna go with Dc sports - I know it might not be the best, but I am in CA and still need to get this new motor ref'd. Once that is out of the way I can start messing around with race parts. Until I get it ref'd - the cops can actually make me pull the engine! Yikes!

So... once intake and exhaust leaks are diagnosed, then we move on to solving the problems when running cold. Gotta check IACV (integrated with FITV for the F20B) and clean it out, clean throttle body, and possibly coolant temp sensor? After that - I hate to say it - it could even be the ECU. Let's hope not.

also - checked EGR valve. nothing there. unplugged it and threw a code but no effect on bad idle or problems running cold.

one question my buddy wasn't able to answer: if the ECU is screwed and I need to replace, can I use a prelude ECU for an H22A4? I ask because I need an OBDII ECU for getting the car ref'd. The reason I wonder is that the F20B is 2.0 liters, but the H22 is 2.2 liters. Would I end up running too rich?

thanks again to everyone for helping out.

 

Not sure about the F series, but B series MAP and IACV connectors are the same. The only way to tell them apart is the color coded wires. It they are switched it can produce some of the symptoms you described.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jabinya &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not sure about the F series, but B series MAP and IACV connectors are the same. The only way to tell them apart is the color coded wires. It they are switched it can produce some of the symptoms you described. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The F20B is technically more of an H series - it's like a debored and destroked H22. Anyhow... on this particular intake manifold, the MAP and IACV have different connectors - not possible to mix 'em up. I only found that out by checking this morning though... so thanks for the help.


Other progress:
Got heatshield off and found source of exhaust leak. Located at bottom connector of exhaust mani. I have some recollection of the mechanic trying to connect a prelude exhaust mani to the accord exhaust system... and I'm not sure what gaskets he used if any. Anyhow, Dc sports header is on order plus all new gaskets and bolts.

More to come next week!

 

Got my new parts today!

... well at least the Dc header anyway. Just waiting on gaskets for the header and my replacement cv boot - then it's all getting put on at the same time.

 

Finally got a little break from school to wrench on the car a little bit more.

Got the CV boot replaced and all the axle grease cleaned out of the engine bay.

Went to put in my new Dc sports header... and yikes! The downpipe doesn't bolt up to the Accord catalytic converter and its about 2" too long! Of course.. being stupid, I didn't check this out super well in advance, and I ended up cracking off one of the bolts on my old leaky exhaust! Now it's leaking even worse than before!

So I can either get the new exhaust cut short and a new flange to bolt up to the cat... or I was thinking I might just do a whole new exhaust... since it looks like more money is going down the drain anyway.

Does anyone know if I can bolt up a prelude exhaust (if the whole system is prelude front to back) on my accord? I think I'm gonna have to have something custom fabbed anyway. Any recommendations on CARB legal exhausts? I want something that sounds good - but not too ricey. She's still a sleeper for now! How's that GReddy one?

 

turns out there are no stock exhaust options for F20B in a CD7 Accord because of non-standard bolts on the Accord exhaust. Ended up having to get my header custom cut and welded with a new flange to fit. but now... no exhaust leak!!

work starts tomorrow on finding that damn vacuum leak in the intake!

 

did you pull the vac line from the egr? or just unplug it.. unplugging it will just throw a light, all the sensor on the egr valve does is a lift sensor, that tells the ecu if its opening or not.

 

just unplugged it... didn't pull the vac line yet. I'll make sure to check that today when I get under the hood.

do you think the egr might have something to do with it running so bad when it's cold? when it's warmed up it just idle surges but has full power. when it's cold - it runs like crap with no power at all. LOL - I can't even drive up a slight hill until it's been running for 10-15 minutes (because I can only get up to about 15mph).