First off I own a EM1 (DC 2.5 exhaust, 4-1 header, aem v2 intake). I raced a friend of mine in his GST Eclipse a few days ago (upraged turbo, and HKS BOV that's it) I pulled on his *** hard through 1-3 gears. At the very begining of 4th gear he started pulling on me, then finally blew past at 85-90 or so. Obviously the turbo on his car played a big part, but why such a sudden drop in 4th? Is it lack of top end power or gear ratios?

 

Their are alot of factors that play a role here. Driver being #1... if he is a crappy driver then you would more than likely pull on him. As soon as he doesn't have to shift anymore then all the work is on the turbo now. Also was he having wheels spin while you were pulling on him hard? I used to have a 91si hatch with a d16 in it and some bolt on's and i would own my friends gst all day, but he was all stock except for a big abnoxious BOV and exhaust

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by p00n &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Their are alot of factors that play a role here. Driver being #1... if he is a crappy driver then you would more than likely pull on him. As soon as he doesn't have to shift anymore then all the work is on the turbo now. Also was he having wheels spin while you were pulling on him hard? I used to have a 91si hatch with a d16 in it and some bolt on's and i would own my friends gst all day, but he was all stock except for a big abnoxious BOV and exhaust</TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually I spun on the launch like crazy, and into 2nd and a slight slip into third . He launched clean though. If traction was the only factor he would have got me as far as i can guess

 

Turbo cars always catch up in the long run

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 5_Lug_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Turbo cars always catch up in the long run</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by importdreamer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Obviously the turbo on his car played a big part </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah I acknowledged forced induction as the key component to him pulling but I felt the difference of pull in my own car after 3rd gear. I was asking about that not why I lost.

 

a bolt on EM1 vs a GST with an upgraded turbo and bov. honestly if i were you id expect to lose. stock GSTs can pull high 14s stock and a bolt on EM1 will only be in the low 15s with a good driver MAYBE. its not your gearing because they are identical to ITR gears but your tranny just doesnt have LSD. and 4th gear feels slow on every bolt on honda. just look at the rpm gauge and youll see that it climbs SLOOOW.

there are obviously a lot of factors but dont feel bad that you lost to a GST.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iVteC_PoWeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a bolt on EM1 vs a GST with an upgraded turbo and bov. honestly if i were you id expect to lose. stock GSTs can pull high 14s stock and a bolt on EM1 will only be in the low 15s with a good driver MAYBE. its not your gearing because they are identical to ITR gears but your tranny just doesnt have LSD. and 4th gear feels slow on every bolt on honda. just look at the rpm gauge and youll see that it climbs SLOOOW.

there are obviously a lot of factors but dont feel bad that you lost to a GST.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah.

@ OP:
Outside the driver's there's 2 main factors here:
1) When you're shifting from 3rd to 4th - you have a 1.458 to a 1.107 gear ratio drop, so it's a nice drop in terms of gear ratios - but that's where it ties into the other part
2) What A LOT of people DON'T GET is the B16 is NOT a strong motor.

The only reason it achives the HP #s it does is because of it's redline - and the only reason it achieves the ET's it does is because of the short *** trans which is ridiculously short in every aspect. Yes it has a high HP - but the torque sucks - which is really what counts in a race - do the math - the real power of the B16 is jokeable.

So you're shifting into 4th where u have a HUGE dropoff in power right when he's hitting his peak boost in 3rd. There's no way you'll pull the RPM up fast enough in 4th before he goes flying by you as he's outputting his maximum HP/Tq.

.

So to answer your question: It's the lack of power - the gear ratio of the B16 is fine - it's very short, but that ~.3 dropoff isn't that bad for a 3rd to 4th shift - it's the lack of torque that kills you.

You gotta remember, say you push it to the redline in 3rd, then shift to 4th, you're still in VTEC, but you're not putting out your peak HP, maybe 140 flywheel HP or so - combine that with the fact that his GST is nailing maximum HP AND torque numbers right about then and you're outta the game.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by iVteC_PoWeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
there are obviously a lot of factors but dont feel bad that you lost to a GST.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh don't worry about that. His may have pulled on me a year later, but at least my **** isn't keyed, scratched, and dented .

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah.

@ OP:
Outside the driver's there's 2 main factors here:
1) When you're shifting from 3rd to 4th - you have a 1.458 to a 1.107 gear ratio drop, so it's a nice drop in terms of gear ratios - but that's where it ties into the other part
2) What A LOT of people DON'T GET is the B16 is NOT a strong motor.

The only reason it achives the HP #s it does is because of it's redline - and the only reason it achieves the ET's it does is because of the short *** trans which is ridiculously short in every aspect. Yes it has a high HP - but the torque sucks - which is really what counts in a race - do the math - the real power of the B16 is jokeable.

So you're shifting into 4th where u have a HUGE dropoff in power right when he's hitting his peak boost in 3rd. There's no way you'll pull the RPM up fast enough in 4th before he goes flying by you as he's outputting his maximum HP/Tq.

.

So to answer your question: It's the lack of power - the gear ratio of the B16 is fine - it's very short, but that ~.3 dropoff isn't that bad for a 3rd to 4th shift - it's the lack of torque that kills you.

You gotta remember, say you push it to the redline in 3rd, then shift to 4th, you're still in VTEC, but you're not putting out your peak HP, maybe 140 flywheel HP or so - combine that with the fact that his GST is nailing maximum HP AND torque numbers right about then and you're outta the game.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well that certainly puts it all down for ya....Next time I got a question like this is it ok if i just pm you . I understand its not an amazingly powerful motor, but its fun to drive and still gets 32 mpg hahaha.

I know i may be kicking a dead elephant here, but is there anything that would help torque enough (besides major additions turbo, SC, NA) that it wouldn't feel like quite a substantial dip in pull?