Hey all, can anyone help me out or know any good links to info about piston to wall clearance using cast pistons.

I'm going to be running darton sleeves and OEM type s pistons but not to sure what the clearances should be. It's a daily driver so reliability is at the top of my list.

Tom

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2007 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey all, can anyone help me out or know any good links to info about piston to wall clearance using cast pistons.

I'm going to be running darton sleeves and OEM type s pistons but not to sure what the clearances should be. It's a daily driver so reliability is at the top of my list.

Tom</TD></TR></TABLE>

OEM cast pistons and DARTON sleeves??? I am lost.......
What was the reason for Darton sleeves then? Why not run forged slugs?
Very confused.....

 

I've had alot of people ask me that lol. My cylinder walls are scratched up so i need to get a new block thats in good shape or get my original block re-sleeved which i think is going to be the more reliable option in the long run.

And the reason for the pistons is that there relitively cheap and i dont see the point of spending twice the amount of money on forged slugs when cast will do the job, and again i see it as the more reliable option.

 

A new block would have been cheaper and more reliable than getting it custom sleeved...are you boosting this car or what? Just an OEM rebuild?

 

Are the Type S pistons compatible with ductile iron since they're made for FRM liners?

Did you install Darton sleeves (like the MID sleeves), or Darton cylinder liners?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hybrid2007 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And the reason for the pistons is that there relitively cheap and i dont see the point of spending twice the amount of money on forged slugs when cast will do the job, and again i see it as the more reliable option.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Talk about *** backwards!

Resleeving costs upwards of $1k or more, depending on who's assembling it afterwards. You can get an entire JDM longblock for around $1k that's never been opened up and reliable as the day it left JDM land.

If you're planning on running any sort of power (boosted or not) with those pistons, good luck rebuilding it when the ringlands crack and take out those new shiny sleeves with it!

 

You can have Darton liners installed for well under $1000 (closer to $600 or $700) including the liners and installation. This of course, does not include engine assembly.

 

This is a learning curve for me. I know i could have gone out and bought a longblock for cheap, whacked it in, and job done. The bottom line is i enjoy doing it. I'd much rather spend twice the money and rebuild the motor myself rather than just swap a new motor in.

I've gone for new sleeves as i think its gonna save me in the long run. Say i get a new block and then 1000 miles down the road it blows? i will be wishing i had re-sleeved so i could just go oversize rather than buying a new block again.

At the moment got eagle rods and type s pistons going in the bottom end, and then when money allows i'll build the head. Not looking for crazy power, 190-200whp would be nice. I cant see there being any problems at that sort of power?

Going for liners not M.I.D's and from what i've been told the slugs are compatable with iron sleeves.

 

Who told you the Type S pistons are compatible with ductile iron liners? I've never heard of anyone running them (that doesn't mean it isn't possible, though).

If the OEM block is honed properly, Type S pistons work just fine. If you blow an engine, you'll do more damage than just a standard overbore would fix.

What kind of clearances would you run with Type S pistons and the Darton liners? Surely you can't run OEM clearances as I'd expect the liners won't expand as much as the stock sleeves and liners.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who told you the Type S pistons are compatible with ductile iron liners? I've never heard of anyone running them (that doesn't mean it isn't possible, though).</TD></TR></TABLE>

It was a forum member that used to be on here, did a budget FRM rebuild write-up if i remember rightly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the OEM block is honed properly, Type S pistons work just fine. If you blow an engine, you'll do more damage than just a standard overbore would fix. </TD></TR></TABLE>

In the UK i don't know anywhere that i can get FRM sleeves honed and tbh i would't trust anywhere.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What kind of clearances would you run with Type S pistons and the Darton liners? Surely you can't run OEM clearances as I'd expect the liners won't expand as much as the stock sleeves and liners.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have no idea tbh, thats what i'm trying to find out.

Do you think i would be safer running a set of forged pistons?

 

I wonder if he has torn down the engine to see what the cylinder walls look like.

I think you'd be better off with forged pistons made for iron liners, as you'll know what kind of clearances to run, and you know the combination will work. The issue is that if you already have the rods, then you'll need to get new rods or have the Eagles resized, as aftermarket rods use a true 22mm wrist pin, whereas the Type S and OEM Honda pistons/rods use a wrist pin that's about 0.002" undersized from 22mm.

 

Ye i was thinking about that earlier, my rods turned up yesterday and i ordered the pistons from hmotors last week. I could probably sell the rods and pistons here in the UK for a profit which will help fund a set of forged pistons. Just gonna have to wait another 6 weeks for a new set of rods to turn up lol

I've been looking at either CP or Wiseco 11.5:1 but not sure what to go for. I like the wiseco's as they come coated but people seem to be raving about CP's a bit more.

 

if your gonna sleeve then you may as well go w/ a slight overbore. 88mm will still be just as reliable as 87mm. and gaining 1mm of bore will give you more power compared to gaining a little compression. depending on your tunning you could also go a little higher in compression like 12:1 and still be completely safe and reliable.

 

btw, if it is reliability and longevity you are going for, than you will definately want to get rid of the eagle rods. there is a reason why people say "you get what you pay for" and i will tell you exactly why.

eagle rods are alot cheaper than others because of the machining process involved in producing them. they are not produced to the same specs and tolorances as oem or even crower, manley, or carrillo. i have had several sets of eagle rods checked out and ALL were way off. the small and big end bores are off every time. the measurement is called checking the bend and twist of the rod. basically if the machine does not bore the hole perfectly straight through the rod, front to back and side to side, the hole will be slightly cocked. when the rod is put into use, as the assembly rotates the rod will act as though it is bent or twisted when actually it is because the bores were off. this will give the piston a corkscrewing affect as it moves up and down the cylinder. eventually wearing the cylinder walls uneven. you could get away w/ using these rods in a race application that will be torn down every season, but i would never use eagle rods in a dd when your going for longevity. if you decide to use them, you will want to have the machine shop check the bend and twist of the rod. i am sure they will find them to be WAY off. most any machine shops wilol tell you, youll never see this problem w/ crower or carrillo and that is why they cost more......because it costs more to produce them for a reason. you get what you pay for.

 

I looked into overboring slightly but from what i've read the increase is only around 3whp for every mm so is it worth risking reliability for a very small gain?

My eagle rods are up for sale now so i'll look into getting a different set. possible carrillo as there is a set going on ebay UK for quite cheap. I had heard that quality control of eagle was bad but i never knew it was that bad.

Thanks for the info guys! Keep it coming if you've got any other thoughts or criticisms. It's much appreciated.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWDVW

What do you reckon to those? seems way to cheap, cant find the part number anywhere on carrillo's site and the distance stated between big end and small end is different to my eagles

 

dont worry, you will gain a bit more than 3whp from the overbore

and besides, if your sleeving the block it would be a huge waste not to add displacement overboring, you will be kicking yourself later for not doing it.

you could even go up to 89mm and still be safe and reliable for a dd. if you have the means of tunning the motor i would also go 12:1 compression as well. youll be very pleased w/ the tq you will gain, as well as the hp from that combo. you could possibly go 12.5:1 comp fairly safely, but to keep it completely reliable w/ no worrys i would stay at 12:1

 

btw, ebay sucks.

check out race engineering, they will be more than happy to help you out.

keep in mind, you have to pay to play

 

Max recommended bore on Darton liners is 88mm, so I wouldn't go above that. The MID sleeves will do 89 easily.

 

I may go oversize, need to look into more before i order anything else. That race engineering site looks like its got everything i need

Still not sure about CR either, i think i'll stick to 11.5:1 for the moment and then i can always use a thinner head gasket when i build the head later on this year to bump it up a bit more. Tuning's not a problem and 100 octane is readily available but i dont wana go to over the top and end up with something that isnt very street friendly.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Max recommended bore on Darton liners is 88mm, so I wouldn't go above that. The MID sleeves will do 89 easily. </TD></TR></TABLE>

not exactly. give race engineering a call, they will tell you why you can safely and reliably run 89mm bore in a dd mild n/a application w/ the darton flanged replacement sleeves for the closed deck block.

although its not reccomended for a reliable dd boosted application, its still done all the time w/o problems on mildly boosted dd's.

 

Sorry, I was referring to a open deck H22, I should have specified.

 

Thanks for all the info guys. Decided to go with 11.5:1 and overbore +1mm and probably Crower rods.

Are there any other good US sites for internals? race engineering seems pretty good but i like to shop around all the same.

 

there are plenty of distributors to get parts from, just cant think of any good ones off the top of my head right now. i have used race eng. for years and they almost always have everything in stock and at very competitive prices.

make sure to get the lightweight crower rods for n/a application, they will save you a good bit of $$, the other heavier rods are mainly for serious boosted apps.