Since I know a lot of you guys in here track your R's, I'd like some opinions from those with experience to chime in here.

How is the car going to react with this setup? I'm currently running a 23mm JDM rear sway and 12/14k setup. Right now, it's great but as time progresses, so is my driving. I'm starting to push the car a bit and wanting it to bite a bit harder.

For those who don't know, this is a track only car so street cred. need not be mentioned. I'm looking for answers from those who do this stuff all the time, and not guesses.

I'd like to have a bit of oversteer if possible, and from what I can figure, this will do that. Any other thoughts? Suggestions?

Supporting this are (if you will) Skunk2 Pro2+ front camber kits. I'm running -1.5 degree's camber all the way around, 1/16 toe out up front and 0 in the back.

So, I know it's been a while for some tech data... but here we go.



ROTY

 

Hello,

I have the Spoon/Showa N1s with 14K/16K and 26mm rear bar. I have been running this setup for about 3 years

I daily drive this car and it is very comfortable to drive - even over long distances

Car has mild oversteer tendency - with rotation that is almost perfect - but your slip angles depend a lot on tire pressure, track surface temps and tire compound.

I think the Type R unibody can handle spring rates up to 12K - but then will probably start to flex. If you are going to use really high (i.e. many times stiffer than stock) springrates then you NEED to consider chassis reinforcement via roll bar or cage. I have a 6 point cage in my car.

Ride quality depends MOST on the QUALITY OF THE DAMPERS not the stiffness of the springs.

Most people that ride in my car cannot believe how comfortable the ride is considering my spring rates (even while sitting in carbon/kevlar race buckets with very little padding)

 

dave your set-up is fine, your still on street tires.......so drive that car like it is for awhile, you still arn't maxing the car out.

When you get to the point your pushing the car at the max, then you can change to get more out.

Keep driving it, then change to R'comps first before spending money on Springs/Shocks/Swaybar/etc.

imo

 

when you switch to R-comps, you may also want to dial in a bit more negative camber...

-1.5 is will not be enough

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think the Type R unibody can handle spring rates up to 12K - but then will probably start to flex. If you are going to use really high (i.e. many times stiffer than stock) springrates then you NEED to consider chassis reinforcement via roll bar or cage. I have a 6 point cage in my car.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

his car has a honda challenge spec full cage

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hello,

I have the Spoon/Showa N1s with 14K/16K and 26mm rear bar. I have been running this setup for about 3 years

I daily drive this car and it is very comfortable to drive - even over long distances

Car has mild oversteer tendency - with rotation that is almost perfect - but your slip angles depend a lot on tire pressure, track surface temps and tire compound.

I think the Type R unibody can handle spring rates up to 12K - but then will probably start to flex. If you are going to use really high (i.e. many times stiffer than stock) springrates then you NEED to consider chassis reinforcement via roll bar or cage. I have a 6 point cage in my car.

Ride quality depends MOST on the QUALITY OF THE DAMPERS not the stiffness of the springs.

Most people that ride in my car cannot believe how comfortable the ride is considering my spring rates (even while sitting in carbon/kevlar race buckets with very little padding)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Car is fully caged (weld in) and harnessed. Both bucket Recaro's, no interior. Basically a full and dedicated track car.

Totally understand in the valving as well. I've heard no complaints from those running said spring rates now. I believe a few of the HC guys are running this setup as well.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hooch’n &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dave your set-up is fine, your still on street tires.......so drive that car like it is for awhile, you still arn't maxing the car out.

When you get to the point your pushing the car at the max, then you can change to get more out.

Keep driving it, then change to R'comps first before spending money on Springs/Shocks/Swaybar/etc.

imo</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maxing it out? Not even close to it. However, I'm forced with a decision. Get another setup for my DD and have 2 of the same setups, or go with said setup and hand-me-down the current setup. So I have to make a purchase any route I go. It's the same price (well minus the 26mm bar but I'm getting one of those anyway) so why not get it?

R-comps are shortly coming. 08 I'll be on them and if I'm going to make the change then, why not have it around now? This doesn't mean I have to necessarily change it out now, but I could always put the 12/14 back on for "learning" since I have a stock sussy setup on stand by as it is. It's not to hard to change between the setups either.

Basically what I'm looking for is how this is going to cause the car to react? I can only presume more oversteer, but is it to the point of "dorifto" for every corner, or more controllable?

 

As you go up in springrates, remember that minor swaybar increases won't show up as much. I doubt you'll notice a huge difference going from 23mm to 26mm with those rates, but you might notice some.

It won't be a pronounced as it would be with a 8/10 setup, for instance.

And if you're still running street tires, your springrates might be a touch high. The 'soft' sidewall will start becomig your springrate, and that will really throw off your suspension tuning.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">when you switch to R-comps, you may also want to dial in a bit more negative camber...

-1.5 is will not be enough</TD></TR></TABLE>

It will be set at -3 before CMP in Sept.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As you go up in springrates, remember that minor swaybar increases won't show up as much. I doubt you'll notice a huge difference going from 23mm to 26mm with those rates, but you might notice some.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Didn't know that.

As a final setup (whenever I get there) it would be 32mm hollow ASR bar (close enough without semantics) or 26mm Mugen bar. So either way it would be the same. In all of this, comes the hand off to the other car. 23mm would be perfect IMO on the street without being stupid and the 12/14k setup on somewhat of a soft setting would be decent as well. I'm trying to think big picture here. I'd rather spend the $$$ now and up front rather than chasing my tail later or spending $$$ on something, only to upgrade again.

 

If you want to notice a difference, disconnect your front sway bar link.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by migs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want to notice a difference, disconnect your front sway bar link.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have thought about that option too.

 

I honestly don't think I'd do anything drastic until you get on R-comps. Setting up a well handling car on street tires is much harder to do than it is on R-comps IMO.

Once you get the R-comps on the car, you may find that your current suspension does just fine with the addition of the 26mm rear bar.

And more front bite will make the car rotate more/faster. So once you start dialing in around 2.5 degrees of front camber or so (and go to R-comps), the car will turn-in better and you may find it too tail happy.

It's just going to take some testing...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I honestly don't think I'd do anything drastic until you get on R-comps. Setting up a well handling car on street tires is much harder to do than it is on R-comps IMO.

Once you get the R-comps on the car, you may find that your current suspension does just fine with the addition of the 26mm rear bar.

And more front bite will make the car rotate more/faster. So once you start dialing in around 2.5 degrees of front camber or so (and go to R-comps), the car will turn-in better and you may find it too tail happy.

It's just going to take some testing...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was kinda hoping someone may have had this, or similar setup.

True, R-comps won't come until next year. However, why not get it now? Is there any adverse affects on street tires? Obviously I wouldn't get a true test, but wouldn't it also give me time to get used to that sussy setup before R-comps, to fully utilize the car?

I'm not dead set on it, but looking for real data here if possible.

Maybe I'll run as is, minus front sway at CMP. Well that and more camber.

 

Dave, as Todd mentioned, and with my personal experience, you wouldn't feel much affect from the 26mm rear bar with 18K springs in the rear.

As Tranny Marc mentioned, you would need more negative camber up front. Even for street tires (Azenis), you would find a lot more front grip when going to 2 to 3 degree of camber.

Spring rates and sway bars only affect load distribution. As long as you could completely unload the inside rear tire (pissing dog) at will, any more rear stiffness would be pointless.

Ride height and track width are the primary factors in weight transfer.

Wider and lower = Less weight transfer.
Less weight transfer = more grip.

So insead of playing around with spring bias, you can also look into changing track width (thru spacers or different offset wheels). Get the front wider and you get more oversteer. Throw the spacers in the back if it rains or the tail motion scares you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Big Phat R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Ride quality depends MOST on the QUALITY OF THE DAMPERS not the stiffness of the springs.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Amen Brotha!

 

Wai, how thick of spacers we talkin here? 5mm? Or more?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dave_B &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wai, how thick of spacers we talkin here? 5mm? Or more?</TD></TR></TABLE>

On my ex-CW, I ran 10mm on a 45mm offset wheel, so making it effectively a 35mm offset wheel. For 10mm, I would definitely get longer wheel studs.

Now I run OEM studs, but run 38mm offset wheel in front and 45mm offset (I think) in the rear. But I also run staggered tires (F225, R205) so that helps a lot in the over/understeer department.

 

dave's head is going to start spinning any moment now

 

I'm planning on installing extended studs soon.

I'll have to look into the spacer thing. Might be a bit to soon to be dialing it in that much. I'm looking for a better "rough" starting point and then dial it in from there to my liking. I was thinking the 14/18 setup might get me to that point. Not perfect, but closer than where I am now.

Edit:

Yeah Marc, in not so many words...

 

16k/14k on Mugen N1's, and i get LOTS of rotation, and this is with 22mm rear bar, standard geometry settings RE: toe on the rear, slightly more camber on the rear, and a little more toe out on the fronts.


14k/18k you are going to get gobs of oversteer with the right geometry setup for your driving style


i can quite easily get the back out on roundabouts with a little lift off. controlling the back with the throttle is

 

I still think 14/18 is approaching too much for street tires. I've played around a lot with Azenis on my R--I mean a lot. After about 950lb springs on the rear, I really didn't get any significant changes beyond that point.

 

I ended up using a slightly smaller front bar and just adjusting with the shocks at this point (although I've kept my adjustable big bar on the back still).. I too could stand more negative front camber on mine and it should turn in perfectly..

I run the 12/14 rate, and you can just as well on the R-comps as on the street tires..

might not be a bad idea to just make one change at a time.. I know the big wholesale suspension/tire changes I've made have tended to confuse things and slow the process of getting the car setup right more difficult and detracted from my confidence in the car as well at times..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I still think 14/18 is approaching too much for street tires. I've played around a lot with Azenis on my R--I mean a lot. After about 950lb springs on the rear, I really didn't get any significant changes beyond that point.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


I find you have to run A LOT more pressure in street tires when using higher spring rates that's all --- otherwise you are all over the place and you look like you can't drive.

I was running 45-48 lbs hot in my street tires - and was amazed at the grip levels I got (Toyo T1R 225/40-16)

R compounds have a ton more steel belting in their sidewalls - and that's why they don't roll over like street tires do --- adding more pressure prevents the roll over - but you have to watch that you don't overheat them as the compounds in street tires don't do well (i.e. blister) when you overheat them


Modified by Big Phat R at 3:47 PM 6/25/2007

 

might not be a bad idea to just make one change at a time.. I know the big wholesale suspension/tire changes I've made have tended to confuse things and slow the process of getting the car setup right more difficult and detracted from my confidence in the car as well at times..[/QUOTE]

 

Leave it as is for now. You can do a lot with the tires and alignment, you may well find you don't need any other parts replaced.

As for the street car, if stock is too high, do something simple to it. The street beater needs a rebuild more than fully adjustable coilovers.