I stumbled upon the compression calculator last night and I am just puzzled now. when you use an H22A crank/rods/TypeS piston in an H23A1 block WHY is it that you get 0.7:1cr+ and have the piston sticking out of the block more?
From what I remember the H22/H23 have the same deck heights......
Also, I just spent 30min searhcing for the H/F series block specs and can't find it again.
So: H22 block/crank/rods/TypeS Pistons=10.9969:1cr & 0.004 p to d height
H23 block H22 crank/rods/TypeS pistons=11.735:1cr & -0.020 p to d height
Stumped.......I was under the impression that H22/H23 block were identical.

 

Well, heres this!
https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1
I guess its a start!

 

I am just so lost......from all the numbers I have in front of me, an H22A piston should produce the same compression and p to d height in either an H23A1 or H22A block.......
My brain is now chop suey!

 

Dimensionally the blocks are the same. The differences in compression arise from mixing and matching cranks/rods/pistons (ie, the rotating assembly, not the block itself). And cyl heads.

 

Even if you use the same head, installing a crank with a longer stroke will affect the CR. Remember the CR is the ratio of the volume in the cylinder at BDC to the volume in the cylinder at TDC. Stroke has a direct effect on both volumes.

If I use the numbers posted in that thread, I get 0.004" in the hole with the H22 (using all H22 hardware) and 0.002" out of the hole with the H23 (using all H23 hardware). If you install H23 rods with H22 pistons, then I get 0.020" out of the hole with a 8.643" deck height.

 

Seems like the same numbers I came up with.
So using an H23A1 block with ALL H22A internals with develope the same compression as using an H22A block with H22A internals. So, to be said, there would be no benefit from just using the H23A1 block?
Wouldn't using the H23 rods with the H22 crank/pistons actually have less compression due to the H23s shorter rod?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

If I use the numbers posted in that thread, I get 0.004" in the hole with the H22 (using all H22 hardware) and 0.002" out of the hole with the H23 (using all H23 hardware). If you install H23 rods with H22 pistons, then I get 0.020" out of the hole with a 8.643" deck height.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

what stroke are you using when you come up with that 0.020" number?
This is what I am comparing:
90.7 stroke---143 rods----TypeS pistons

Numbers just aren't adding up for me.......Maybe I don't clearly understand 4 stroke dynamics.

 

I was using H23 stroke (3.74"), H23 rods (5.572") and H22 comp height (1.221") for the Type S pistons.

To determine the height of the piston at TDC use this formula:

deck height - (comp height + rod length + stroke/2)

For the CR, the rod length would affect the CR, all else equal. In this case, though, you're not just changing the rod length, you're changing the stroke.

Think about it a bit. The CR is nothing but the ratio of the volume of the cylinder (and head) at BDC to the volume of the cylinder (and head) at TDC.

If you keep the stroke the same and use a shorter rod, what you've done is just moved the piston lower in the cylinder bore at all points in the stroke. This effectively raises the volume at BDC and TDC by the same amount. This is lower the CR a fair bit.

Let's now say you change the stroke. What you've done now is moved the piston higher at TDC and lower at BDC. What this does is increase the volume at BDC, and decrease the volume at TDC. This raises CR by a fair amount!

 

I completely understand all of that and thats why I was getting so frustrated.
So with the same internals the H22 and H23 block will be identical......

Added compression will come from the use of an H23 crank/rods which is what I understand......If I hadn't stumbled into that CR calculator, I would have been just fine. So when I click H22A pistons in H23A block it assumes the use of the H23 Crank/Rods. This makes complete sense to me....Damn that calculator!

Thanks Billy!

 

My understanding is that the blocks don't give you any advantages. The construction is similar, and all the critical dimensions are the same, so if all you need is a block, you might be better off getting an H23 as I'm sure it'll be cheaper at a junkyard.

Are you building another engine? I'm in the middle of building one myself, but now I'm in a friggin budget crunch. No track events for June or July for me. Fortunately, I couldn't go to NPM anyway, or I would have really been upset! One of these days, we'll have to make it to another track event together.

 

Yes, I am in the beginning stages of building an N/a-Nitrous motor. Something along the lines of an 89mm bore and 95/97mm stroke with 12:1+cr and my JUN cams along with more than likely PORTFLOW headwork. I am going to try to keep it simple by just using my BTP3 Intake Manifold, and some sort of Race header.
I am looking to have a very track worthy N/A setup that can turn some high 11-low 12sec times with my Custom 3 stage 125-150 Nitrous setup.
Im not looking to build an HCH1 car, just very very very fun track days.
I took a pass on NPM as well for money/details reasons, not worth the running around. I can do 3-4 track days for what NPM will cost me.

So, the final run down as I truely need to understand this:
H22A block/crank/rods/TypeS pistons=11:1cr
H23A block/H22 crank/rods/TypeS pistons=11:1cr and same displacement
H23A block/crank/rods/TypeS pistons=11.7:1cr and 0.1L + displacement
H23A block/crank & H22A rods/TypeS pistons=12.4:1cr and a little less than 0.1L+ displacement. The P/D height is more with the H23 crank/rods and even higher with the use of longer H22 rods with an H23 crank.
This is all making perfect sense now......Its actually what I knew until I started with that damn Calculator.

The new N/A setup will be done for next season and I should have my truck by then. Once that is the case, I am down for RoadTrips like there is no tomorrow!
I still need to get to the track to play with my new Powerband!! 8300rpms FTW!!! And 100+ in 3rd!!! Yes, stock block....I know I am crazy!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by :=:NirVTEC:=: &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So when I click H22A pistons in H23A block it assumes the use of the H23 Crank/Rods. This makes complete sense to me....Damn that calculator!

Thanks Billy! </TD></TR></TABLE>

ah ha.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you building another engine? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm "assuming" that he posted to figure out if my compression changed between my old motor and new motor. (old=H23 block, H22A-something crank and rods, Type S pistons, US H22A (H22A1?) head. New = Euro R motor complete). They both should be 11:1, I think, if we're now all on the same page (though, the new one is still short power for some reason).

 

If you use H22 rods with an H23 crank and Type S pistons, you're going to be out of the hole around 0.111". That's a TON. It's damn near 3mm. I would really worry about the piston rocking at TDC, plus you're going to need some seriously deep quench pads in the head to get a decent amount of piston to head clearance!

Chris, you're running a Euro R complete engine now? Aren't those an 85mm bore block?

 

Its all clarified now Chris. Yes, I posted this to try to figure out some stmping questions.
Your old H23 block with H22 internals is making the same compression as the new H22 block with H22 internals.
I don't think youre down on power.....I think a certain Dyno read HIGH to be honest. 232whp seemed like an awful stretch once I found out it was only a 2.2/11:1 liter. Not saying Corey lied about his numbers or anything, but I just have to say the Whip Factory dyno reads what it reads. I would be willing to bet the car as you bought it would have made similar power on the same Dyno.
I think its on PAR Chris, Shawn just made 210whp with a very similar setup at Whip Factory, the bottle neck being his exhaust and possibly the intake setup as well as the Cams not performing quite as well as JUNs would.
Hes running a EuroR(so virtually the same as your motor) with SkunkPro2's and a Hytech with a 2.36" exhaust.
I made 204whp with my JUNs and the bottleneck being the Vibrant header and a little less compression that you guys have.
I would love to get all 3 of us out to WHIP to do back to back to back runs to compare 3 very nicely put together setups with Stock Blocks/headwork.
I would also like to see what an i/h/e Prelude made. My guess is ~175whp give or take a few depending on exact brands of mods. Like DC/Greddy header and Any decent exhaust.
dynos read so different everywhere you go........I laugh when I see the i/h/e made 200whp claims.
Its a shame we can't get Billy up here to test as well......What a 4 way Dyno test that would be!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Chris, you're running a Euro R complete engine now? Aren't those an 85mm bore block?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, they are the same 87/90.7 but have the 11:1 pistons. I think youre thinking of the F20B blocks which are smaller bore and less stroke.
EuroR/TypeS=same shortblock with same head and different intake manifold.
*Drools* over the EuroR gearing!!!
Shawns swears by his EuroR setup now.....Says acceleration with just 15whp more than his SH tran'd setup is amazing!!!
For insane gear ratios!
I think youre feeling the same with the 4.7+225/45/15's Billy!!! You mentioned 130 in the top of 5th before.....Got to be sick!!!



Modified by :=:NirVTEC:=: at 12:58 PM 5/22/2007

 

You should see this engine I'm trying to build now...

 

i can only imagine.....
Remove the restraints of H2 rules with you would be like letting a Tiger out of its cage.
I am thoroughly convinced that BIG power can be made with an OEM Honda bottom end. I just love the reliability of using all OEM parts, but the 87mm bore is just not going to do it for me. I want the reliability of Iron sleeves/forged pistons for the ridiculous amount of nitrous I plan to use.......
SSR/DTR made some sick power with a VERY LEGAL H1 motor, even though theyre using it for Drag Racing.
H22A4 block and USDM Pistons with F23 rods/crank & Stage2 Cams. It was over 250whp....but on what I would consider an inflated Dyno.

 

I really thought about a 95/97mm crank, but I already have this bottom end together. The head is the key, and that's what I need to have done. These roller cams and roller rockers are just begging to be used.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by :=:NirVTEC:=: &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think youre down on power.....I think a certain Dyno read HIGH to be honest. 232whp seemed like an awful stretch once I found out it was only a 2.2/11:1 liter. Not saying Corey lied about his numbers or anything, but I just have to say the Whip Factory dyno reads what it reads </TD></TR></TABLE>

Old motor read 230 WHP on a dynojet at King Motorsports too, and 217 or something at NASA Nationals Dynojet (Backstreet Performance). I agree dyno's make a difference!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... </TD></TR></TABLE>

p.s. I want my number back! I already had #17 ruthlessly taken from me.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by :=:NirVTEC:=: &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
*Drools* over the EuroR gearing!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You know, on a road course, it could go either way between the Euro R and the 4th gen Prelude. The 4th gen 3rd gear is taller, and 5th gear is shorter, so they end up closer ratio! For Putnam, a really fast track, I end up in 4th gear the whole way around with the euro R and 4.6 FD (except for 5th on the straight for a moment and 3rd gear in 2 corners). With my old gears, stock 4th gen, I would have used 3rd more often and maybe had a better launch onto the front straight. Maybe. Hard to say. I don't think it's such a difference that I'd spend the few hours to swap gears for each track! I definitely love the new 3rd and short FD coming onto the straight at Mid-O, and I like the new gears for standing starts with the taller 1/2.

 

The only thing I don't like it that it seems that 1st gear is worthless with the FDs. Too bad you can't make 1st a little taller to close the gap between 1st and 2nd.

I'm not #117. My car is actually #27, but I don't have my license yet (August, hopefully), so it's really not even official.

 

[commence threadjack!]

Cool.. are you going to run H2/3 with Dave Rierson, or SCCA ITS (ITR?) or something else? (Dave is DR on honda tech, runs with NASA in TX)

I used to live in Fort Worth, I did HPDE's at Motorsports Ranch ("First Ever" PCA Drivers Ed in 1999"), Hallet, Texas World Speedway.. that was in my stock ITR, way back when.

-Chris

 

I know David very well. His car is sitting in my garage as we speak. I built his engine (Endyn is all the machine work and bottom end assembly, though), and I've done some other work for him too.

I'm planning to run in NASA with David. It'll probably be H1, as that's what the car is legal for now. I don't plan to be competitive, I just do this for fun. David gets a little frustrated with me, as I like to tinker with the car a lot. For me, the modification/fabrication is half the fun (also frustrating, but rewarding in the end).

My car is almost legal, it just needs a disconnect and fire system. So hopefully I'll have my license by the end of the season.

I've run MSR Cresson, Hallett, and TWS many, many times.

 

That doesn't surprise me. When I tried to have them tune my setup(without Hondata) it made ~190whp@KING and the ~180whp@Speedquest. With Hondata, we were able to tune it out to 204whp.

Eh, its not a thread jack.....Its 3 H series Roadracers talking Super-H-tech!

I really liked Hallet....did it for NPM in 2005! 1:35's first time there with a street car making 187whp on RA1's!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 117 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I really thought about a 95/97mm crank, but I already have this bottom end together. The head is the key, and that's what I need to have done. These roller cams and roller rockers are just begging to be used. </TD></TR></TABLE>

whats the story with those? roller cams/rockers?
As we all know....alot of power lies in the head!

People have said 1st gear is only to get it on the trailer! Violent standing starts would be pretty sick as well!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by :=:NirVTEC:=: &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I would love to get all 3 of us out to WHIP to do back to back to back runs to compare 3 very nicely put together setups with Stock Blocks/headwork.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

when would you guys do this? I'd consider making the drive from Des Moines if it was late enough in the summer. My setup too will be fairly similiar, well except for the stock part.

 

Its just something to toss around. Im sure we could figure it out, but I wouldn't want it to just be a Baseline x3 day. I would have to do a little more tuning to hit my 210whp Goal. Not bad for a stock JDM Motor/headwork with JUNs and a $500 header.
I know Myself and Shawn(skunked5thgen) are down for this whenever, but Im not sure about Chris.
I just wish Mark would get off his *** with the Mustang dyno already! Time to sink below the 200 mark when that happens!
I will keep you posted Rosko. We would love to have you in Chicagoland!
what is your setup?

DOH!! I looked on your page and had a 4 Barrel Shotgun pointing at me with some nasty looking headwork!