I have a '97 4dr civic with 205/50/16 tires and Tokiko Illuminas/Eibach Integra Pro-kit ( 331/194p ) w/the Illuminas set on lvl 2 all around. I'm ok with the ride but I wouldn't mind having a softer ride. I'm going to be buying an Integra and with it, a new suspension. I've been hearing good things about the Koni's but I can't make stuff out from the graphs.

Once I get up in speed, my car handles well while having a very smooth ride, but around town ( 10mph - 30mph ) it feels a little harsh.
Assuming everything to be equal on the car, which shock will ride smoother in a DD?

*Update 6/30/07* I just replaced the driver side engine bushing/mount plus I've had some time on these springs. I think a combo of the springs settling in and the mounts doing a better job of securing the engine as I drive is helping to make it a smoother ride.



Modified by FuNkDrSpOt at 3:49 PM 6/30/2007

 

So, you have a civic with integra springs. This is your problem.


#1. Get correct springs for your car.

#2. Stiffer shocks will make the ride more firm

#3. You have the illuminas on the #2 setting which is almost full soft, then why waste money on a firmer shock? Konis are praised for build quality but the main reason is because they have the ability to go very firm and control very stiff springs.

#4. You dont really need Konis if you hardly use the Illuminas.




Modified by gringo7718 at 5:27 AM 4/5/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gringo7718 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so, you have a civic with integra springs. maybe this is your problem.


#1. get correct springs for your car.

#2. research the spring rates for your car. if you want softer springs, get softer springs, but prokit are pretty soft.

#3. if you have the illuminas on the #2 setting which is almost full soft, then why waste money on konis? konis are praised for build quality but the main reason is because they have the ability to go very firm and control very stiff springs. you dont really need konis if you hardly use the illuminas. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You didn't read half of what I typed, did you?

1. They are the correct springs considering the fact that I have a swap. Either way, integra and civic springs are interchangeable. But, I never brought springs into it so this is a completely pointless point.

2. I know the spring rates for my car. Again, My question was on shocks. I know shocks and springs both start with an 'S' but they're not the same.

3. I'd be wasting money on the Koni's because I might be getting a new car, which you'd know if you read the OP.


Thank you for bumping but I asked a specific question. You completely skated around it. Thanks for trying though.

 

define "harsh".

i think something in your suspension like balljoints or bushings or whatever is loose and has play due to age. its outside the bounds of the shock and springs.

take a close look at your suspension, do a complete shakedown of each part, i mean grab a handful of knuckle, tie rod or control arm or whatever and shake it like youre shaking an apple from a tree.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">define "harsh".

i think something in your suspension like balljoints or bushings or whatever is loose and has play due to age. its outside the bounds of the shock and springs.

take a close look at your suspension, do a complete shakedown of each part, i mean grab a handful of knuckle, tie rod or control arm or whatever and shake it like youre shaking an apple from a tree.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well I know for sure that my control arm bushings need replacement. I guess what I mean by harsh is that it's a little on the bouncy side for me. I'm a sissy, I like my cars to ride ultra smooth.

 

Bouncy is a hard term to understand technically. Do you feel the car continue to oscillate after you hit a bump? Are the impacts too harsh when hitting a bump? Do you have a sort of bobblehead feeling when driving, like the dampers aren't allowing the springs to work? Try to explain the problem in a more technical manner so we have a better idea of what the bouncy means. Not ragging on you, just having a hard time understanding what you mean by bouncy.

Jon

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bouncy is a hard term to understand technically. Do you feel the car continue to oscillate after you hit a bump? Are the impacts too harsh when hitting a bump? Do you have a sort of bobblehead feeling when driving, like the dampers aren't allowing the springs to work? Try to explain the problem in a more technical manner so we have a better idea of what the bouncy means. Not ragging on you, just having a hard time understanding what you mean by bouncy.

Jon</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, the car doesn't continue to bounce. It' just feels like a stronger dip. It's definitely this way when hitting a pothole.

I don't feel like a bobblehead.

If i could put it into technical terms I really would. Got a link that will help me do that?

 

Not really, it sounds to me like you just don't like the impact harshness. The thing that sucks about this is that there is basically no cure if your suspension is all tight/in working order. I have always thought that ProKit was super smooth, but I got used to riding in a car that made my kidneys hurt after about 25 minutes, so I am a poor judge of ride quality.

Jon

 

Sound like your only real option for a smooth ride is to put the stock suspension back on. That's as soft as it gets... Either that or bug KONI to make you a custom set of FSD dampers and try a pro-kit on them...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chim Chim &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Sound like your only real option for a smooth ride is to put the stock suspension back on. That's as soft as it gets... Either that or bug KONI to make you a custom set of FSD dampers and try a pro-kit on them...</TD></TR></TABLE>

FSD dampers?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HondaF1Fanatic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not really, it sounds to me like you just don't like the impact harshness. The thing that sucks about this is that there is basically no cure if your suspension is all tight/in working order. I have always thought that ProKit was super smooth, but I got used to riding in a car that made my kidneys hurt after about 25 minutes, so I am a poor judge of ride quality.

Jon</TD></TR></TABLE>


Yeah, i'm a friggin sissy when it comes to ride quality.

 

http://www.koni-na.com/fsd.cfm

http://www.tirerack.com/suspen...r+Set

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chim Chim &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.koni-na.com/fsd.cfm

http://www.tirerack.com/suspen...r+Set</TD></TR></TABLE>

So bewteen tokikos and Koni yellows......which one will have a smoother ride?

That's my question. There's graphs showing the two but I don't know how to really read it for mph.

 

http://www.koni-na.com/fsd.cfm

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chim Chim &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">http://www.koni-na.com/fsd.cfm</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, but they don't offer that for Integras.

http://www.koni-na.com/present....html

This graph shows the Koni's yellows vs the Tokiko illuminas. I can't read this decypher it for real world application. What speed would the X-axis be representing, especially around the point that the dark blue intersects the light blue line

Also, the bottom part of the graph, the Koni's have double the ability the Tokiko's do. What does that do for ride quality and performance?

 

I'm no expert by any means, but the way I understand that graph is the digressive valving ramps up damping on low speeds to control body roll and increases damping on mid speed and on high speed damping it kind of plateus to keep the ride smooth...

If you read my previous posts, I suggested that you ask koni to make you a "custom set" of FSD dampers.

In regards to your question of koni vs. tokico dampers... this slide pretty much answers that question...

http://www.koni-na.com/present....html

 

i have found that graph on koni's website of the illuminas very misrepresentative of the actual valving of their shocks.

tokico advertises simultaneous adjustment of both compression and rebound, and i have found they do. at least in the shocks I have had dynoed.

konis, on a matter of company philosophy, only allows adjustment in rebound. leaving compression mostly alone. i have found that with soft springs, using yellows just promotes suspension jacking, where the shock will compress easily, but not recover in time in the rebound stroke for the next bump. using a stiff spring masks this issue.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chim Chim &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm no expert by any means, but the way I understand that graph is the digressive valving ramps up damping on low speeds to control body roll and increases damping on mid speed and on high speed damping it kind of plateus to keep the ride smooth...

If you read my previous posts, I suggested that you ask koni to make you a "custom set" of FSD dampers.

In regards to your question of koni vs. tokico dampers... this slide pretty much answers that question...

http://www.koni-na.com/present....html</TD></TR></TABLE>

I understand what you're saying but I'm damn sure not going to be paying for them to make a set for me when I have no idea how good they are.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have found that graph on koni's website of the illuminas very misrepresentative of the actual valving of their shocks.

tokico advertises simultaneous adjustment of both compression and rebound, and i have found they do. at least in the shocks I have had dynoed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Do you have a pic or a link you come give me for the Illuminas?

 

http://www.koni-na.com/present....html

This graph shows the Koni's yellows vs the Tokiko illuminas. I can't read this decypher it for real world application. What speed would the X-axis be representing, especially around the point that the dark blue intersects the light blue line

Also, the bottom part of the graph, the Koni's have double the ability the Tokiko's do. What does that do for ride quality and performance? [/QUOTE]

 

for a softer, more comfortable ride, you want a progressive rate. for a more performance ride, you want a digressive rate where the low speed damping (turning, braking) is relatively high, but doesnt increase as quickly at higher damping speeds (pot holes, bumps in the road).

in my graph of tokico's, the 1-2 adjustment offers a progressive rate and changes to a more digressive rate at the higher adjustments. and keeps the ratio of rebound and compression in synch.

 

the graph represents the damping value dependent of the speed of the pistons movement. in both compression, and rebound. its NOT the speed of the vehicle! its the speed of the shock movement, thats it.

hitting a bump like a pothole is a HIGH SPEED movement. its an immediate shock.

while turning as the car leans over is a relatively low speed movement.

its a total compromise between the two. you want a controlled ride while turning (low speed damping), but yet at the higher damping speeds you want to allow the shock to move more freely. however, thats just not possible when the fluid is going through the same piston valves, it cant differentiate without some extra engineering. such as konis new frequency selective dampers (recently highlighted in racecar engineering magazing in february) OR more commonly using a separate reservoir engineered with a diaphragm and separate valve to tune high speed damping separately.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the graph represents the damping value dependent of the speed of the pistons movement. in both compression, and rebound. its NOT the speed of the vehicle! its the speed of the shock movement, thats it.

hitting a bump like a pothole is a HIGH SPEED movement. its an immediate shock.

while turning as the car leans over is a relatively low speed movement.

its a total compromise between the two. you want a controlled ride while turning (low speed damping), but yet at the higher damping speeds you want to allow the shock to move more freely. however, thats just not possible when the fluid is going through the same piston valves, it cant differentiate without some extra engineering. such as konis new frequency selective dampers (recently highlighted in racecar engineering magazing in february) OR more commonly using a separate reservoir engineered with a diaphragm and separate valve to tune high speed damping separately.</TD></TR></TABLE>


So by the sound of it, the Konis will give a lot more feel of the road due to them being stronger on the low speed dampening and will be softer for high speed dampening.

My question then is what type of bump would the mid-part of the graph represent?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FuNkDrSpOt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


So by the sound of it, the Konis will give a lot more feel of the road due to them being stronger on the low speed dampening and will be softer for high speed dampening.

My question then is what type of bump would the mid-part of the graph represent?</TD></TR></TABLE>

kinda i suppose. its hard to say. koni aims for their own "koni feel" in their tuning of street shocks. which is basically a lot of rebound, not a lot of compression. it works for some ppl and some springs. i dont think it works for all. regardless, the quality and service of koni is top notch, even in their street shocks.

everything in between. speed bumps at 5mph, to 30mph, dips in the road, uneven pavement. blah blah blah.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tyson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

kinda i suppose. its hard to say. koni aims for their own "koni feel" in their tuning of street shocks. which is basically a lot of rebound, not a lot of compression. it works for some ppl and some springs. i dont think it works for all. regardless, the quality and service of koni is top notch, even in their street shocks.

everything in between. speed bumps at 5mph, to 30mph, dips in the road, uneven pavement. blah blah blah. </TD></TR></TABLE>

So could you give me a real-world example of what the graph means above and below the X-axis?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FuNkDrSpOt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So could you give me a real-world example of what the graph means above and below the X-axis?</TD></TR></TABLE>