Hi there, I've just returned from an 8 hour trip to Houston, TX. All this was for the tuning session scheduled with St00pidfast, I had heard lots of good things from him as a tuner, but even though I returned really sad about the numbers. I'll brief you on both setups, the before and after and maybe you guys could tell me where the problem is, and some suggestions. I hope I'm just not another sad N/A story here, and I could fix this problem and see some results someday.

Before:
Civic Sir B16A
Aem v2 intake
BBK 70mm Throttle Body
Skunk 2 Intake Manifold
Hondata Intake manifold gasket
Skunk2 stage 1 cams
ITR valvetrain
Cometic head gasket 81.5mm 0.030"
Skunk 2 Cam Gears
Arias 81.5mm High Compression Pistons
ARP head studs
Eagle rods
Street Master Headwork done by Joe Alaniz
B&M Fuel pressure regulator
Stock fuel injectors
DC sports USDM 4-1
Custom exhaust system
Hondata S200 w/p28 ecu
Tuning at SCI motorsports San Antonio, Texas.




After that dyno I thought ok there are good numbers for such a mild cam, and I bought some M22x cams with valvetrain and flat faced valved to raise compresion a bit and I milled the head 0.010" to raise it some more but keep it safe for the gas I use here in Mexico(no problems with the gas BTW, so far). I also changed the header for the JDM DC 4-1 with 2.5" collector and complete 2.5" exhaust pipe with magnaflow silencers and an OBX twin loop muffler, I bought rc 440cc fuel injectors, walbro fuel pump, and another cometic 0.030" head gasket. Results were the following.



the car was tested up to 9300 rpms and had very little gains 1whp at most so we settled at 8800.
I had a question about the STD horsepower on the second graph vs the STD smoothing: 5 on the first one, does that mean the first one was really 5 whp above?
Well I really want to know what do you guys think could be the problem here, as far as i thought its that maybe I'm still not getting the compression required to run those cams, or that maybe there are indeed to big for my motor. I know that the TB is too big, actually its 2mm bigger than the intake tube, and that the headers are not the best. But still loosing power through all the powerband after upgrading the cams seemed to me that that is not the real problem.

Thanks in advance guys.


Modified by fr3dy_1 at 5:29 PM 3/19/2007

 

you cant really compare numbers from two different dyno's on two different day's

 

change the dc header, and what kind of "custom exhaust" are you running?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">change the dc header, and what kind of "custom exhaust" are you running?</TD></TR></TABLE>

W3RD! that 1 7/8" collector (or whatever size it is) BLOWS!

 

put the stock throttle body on it or a maximum of 64-65mm.

That tb imo is responsible for your weak tq numbers.

m22x are'nt really recomended for 1.6l engines either.

So start with the tb and then maybe even compare the sks1 to the m22x in the new setup.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by doood &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you cant really compare numbers from two different dyno's on two different day's</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did the tuner seemed suprised at the numbers also or did he think they were spot on for your setup on his dyno? There are so many variables that you really can't even compare two DynoJets to each other. If anything take it back to the place that you did the original dyno runs and get a dyno with your new setup to really make a before/after comparison.

 

Sorry I forgot to say that after the first tuning, I changed the headers for DC JDM 4-1 2.5" collector, and a 2.5" exhaust with 2 magnaflow silencers and an OBX twin loop muffler.
And are you really sure that I should use the stock throttle body instead?

The tuner(st00pid) said at first that those were good numbers for a b16 but after knowing the complete setup he said it should be above those numbers, but he didn't know why.

 

Can't see the dyno sheets

 

sorry about the pictures, I didn't know Geocities had those problems of limited data transfer rate, both pictures are 80Kb I don't understand why the problem is but I'll make another account...

 

Set the cams to 100 on the intake and 105 on the exhaust (provided you have proper clearances at this setting) to get mid-range up. This will help your non-vtec operation which in turn will help "sling shot" the motor better into the high cam.

Also check your leakdown numbers.

 

70mm throttle body is pretty big

 

I don't think you should really be dissapointed.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clean rice &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't think you should really be dissapointed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ya isnt stock b16a about 130-140 on a dyno so 30-40 hp over stock is pretty decent and you definately have a couple more horses to free up

 

give'm a link to your motor with those cams derek. his were only a little less than yours aren't they?

 

thanks for the enthusiasm about the numbers, but that was what i thought when I had it first tuned, then after around 1.6K investment, I got 3whp peak.
I'm just positive on what MR_Ek4 said, I must have more horses to free up now than I had before, but the question is how to...

 

I made 170 with a stock B16b and a <U>****</U> tune. Stock air box/exhaust manifold. I'll be dynoing soon with a short ram, toda header, RC 310's and a worked IM with a much better tuner.

 

~171whp out of a b16 is very very good. Actually, 168 is very very good.

I would say get a rage small tube header. That should free-up a few more missing ponies.

 

dont be fooled by dyno numbers....put her on the track and see what she really does!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fr3dy_1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for the enthusiasm about the numbers, but that was what i thought when I had it first tuned, then after around 1.6K investment, I got 3whp peak.
I'm just positive on what MR_Ek4 said, I must have more horses to free up now than I had before, but the question is how to...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Look into a better header (smsp,rmf,ssr,hytech) and have your tuner play with your cam gears you should be able to free up a couple ponies there as well Good luck with your build i definately see 180hp from your motor

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suck my DX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dont be fooled by dyno numbers....put her on the track and see what she really does!</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I'll be taking it to the track this wednesday, but as far as daily driving, it feels heaviear than before.

About the headers mentioned for the setup, any of those should work really similar, right? I've always liked the Toda headers but questions about the 4-2-1 always come up. I beleive that headers and TB are for now essential, right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fr3dy_1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll be taking it to the track this wednesday, but as far as daily driving, it feels heaviear than before.

About the headers mentioned for the setup, any of those should work really similar, right? I've always liked the Toda headers but questions about the 4-2-1 always come up. I beleive that headers and TB are for now essential, right? </TD></TR></TABLE>


A header and a smaller tb should definatley be your next purchases IMO.

Try around a 64mm throttle body.

Toda header is one of the best 1.6l header's on the market so on that idea.


Also be sure to degree or have the cams degreed to the spec's above that don lackey has suggested, and I am not sure if you know but he is the designer/manufacturer of the cams you are using so I'm sure he knows best.


Your have a very potent engine, it's just going to take some time to find out what works for it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Don Lackey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Set the cams to 100 on the intake and 105 on the exhaust (provided you have proper clearances at this setting) to get mid-range up. This will help your non-vtec operation which in turn will help "sling shot" the motor better into the high cam.

Also check your leakdown numbers.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry to be this ignorant, but what does 100 on the intake and 105 on the exhaust mean? is it for the cam gears? +0, - 5?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fr3dy_1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Sorry to be this ignorant, but what does 100 on the intake and 105 on the exhaust mean? is it for the cam gears? +0, - 5? </TD></TR></TABLE>

It has nothing to do with the cam gears, it is the degrees used for reference when degreeing in your cams. If you're still not sure what that means try searching "degreeing cams".

 

uh oh, the degreeing comes up again. i got confused when reading the last thread about that but is something i really need to get done. who would i call in the phone book to ask if they do it?