Im stuck in a hard place on what to decide to do with my brakes this year. My car is a pretty light track car (ef civic 3 door) I autocross the car regularly and hope to do some track events this year,and here's the scoop

car 1989 civic si hatch

I Bought 1999 civic si brakes and swaped all 4 corners out along with crx si perportion valve and nuspeed stainless lines. My camber was messed up so I also bought a set of ex knuckles (extremly hard to find) but ran stock pads the past 2 seasons.

My question is this: Will I see alot of improvement in my brakeing if i swap back to my stock 240mm knuckle and buy the 11" wilwood 4 piston caliper kit? because I can sell the things I have now:

ex knuckle's with new bearings and extended studs- 250.00
ek civic si knuckles with 20,000 miles, calipers, rotors- 200.00

thats 450$ plus the 100.00 or so that i will spend on eagle pads for my hybrid brakes. So thats about the willwood kit right there.

or just keep what i have and buy hawk hp+'s and call it a day?

 

With an aggressive set of pads and some ducts, I think you could save the Willwood money for something else.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Track rat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With an aggressive set of pads and some ducts, I think you could save the Willwood money for something else. </TD></TR></TABLE>Thats the thing I could sell my present setup and not pay anything for the wilwood kit thats why im torn. question is "Do i need it?"

 

With the Wilwood kit you will save 5 - 8 lbs per corner over the Honda equipment. This is un-sprung weight and certainly can be to your advantage auto crossing. Also depending on which calipers you go with you will likely find performance brake pads for the Wilwood calipers are also less expensive.

 

It's amazing what a good set of Hawk or Carbotech pads at all four corners will do for you! I am running Hawk HPS all around and with just Kumho SPTs my Prelude stops very quickly, enough to disorient you. Now with some R-Comp tires it would be even better/quicker! I thought about going the route of big brakes but upgraded my stock brakes while I started saving, now I can spend that money on something else! Just try some good pads, bed them in properly and see for yourself if you NEED more stopping power. I'd be willing to bet you won't. Wj

Oh, I track my car on HPDEs and drive it to work most days. I have not had any problems with these pads on track or the steet.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00BaseRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's amazing what a good set of Hawk or Carbotech pads at all four corners will do for you! I am running Hawk HPS all around and with just Kumho SPTs my Prelude stops very quickly, enough to disorient you. Now with some R-Comp tires it would be even better/quicker! I thought about going the route of big brakes but upgraded my stock brakes while I started saving, now I can spend that money on something else! Just try some good pads, bed them in properly and see for yourself if you NEED more stopping power. I'd be willing to bet you won't. Wj

Oh, I track my car on HPDEs and drive it to work most days. I have not had any problems with these pads on track or the steet. </TD></TR></TABLE>

awsome thanks for the advise keep it comming!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00BaseRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's amazing what a good set of Hawk or Carbotech pads at all four corners will do for you! I am running Hawk HPS all around and with just Kumho SPTs my Prelude stops very quickly, enough to disorient you. Now with some R-Comp tires it would be even better/quicker! I thought about going the route of big brakes but upgraded my stock brakes while I started saving, now I can spend that money on something else! Just try some good pads, bed them in properly and see for yourself if you NEED more stopping power. I'd be willing to bet you won't. Wj

Oh, I track my car on HPDEs and drive it to work most days. I have not had any problems with these pads on track or the steet. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I second this. I'm still on stock 9.4" front brakes and rear drums. I switched to carbotech panther plus pads (the replacement now I believe is ax6, or something like that) and it was absolutely night and day. I had to completely change the way I brake on the street because I nearly threw myself through the windshield when I first stepped on the pedal...I wasn't expecting how much different they'd be. I autocross on both street tires and r-comps, and there's definitely an advantage to having good pads. It's the most economical performance enhancing upgrade you can make to a braking system.

I think in your case that you should just upgrade to some good pads all the way around, and that you'll be astonished at the added braking ability. Look at carbotech or hawk...they seem to have good choices that are agressive, but still streetable (good initial low temperature bite).

As far at the Willwood setup goes, I've heard some stories about the calipers flexing a lot. I work with a guy who installed a set on his Talon, and had to take them off because when he stepped on the pedal, they would flex and contact the wheel, even with nearly 1/4" clearance when the pedal wasn't pressed.

 

what engine are you using? how much power are you making? are you on streets or r-comps?
the lighter setup will be nice, yes (and you can buy my VW g60 rotors). but since you have EX knuckles you can do the oem 11" set up and save money and get larger brake set up (if you need it)

 

i am actually contemplating on going with the willwood brake kit... i already have hawk hp+s and rotora slotted rotors and steel braided brake line... i feel it doesn't stop fast enough... idk y maybe its just me...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vincent001 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i am actually contemplating on going with the willwood brake kit... i already have hawk hp+s and rotora slotted rotors and steel braided brake line... i feel it doesn't stop fast enough... idk y maybe its just me... </TD></TR></TABLE>

What kind of tires are you running? You reach a point where bigger/better brakes overpower the tires. The tires are what stop the car. Are you locking up or is the ABS kicking in? Wj

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00BaseRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Are you locking up or is the ABS kicking in? Wj</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spun Vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
car 1989 civic si hatch

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm gonna guess ABS is not a problem

I support just changing the pads first and add proper ducting. It should be ample for your setup.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what engine are you using? how much power are you making? are you on streets or r-comps?
the lighter setup will be nice, yes (and you can buy my VW g60 rotors). but since you have EX knuckles you can do the oem 11" set up and save money and get larger brake set up (if you need it)</TD></TR></TABLE>

built sohc vtec
under 170whp
will be running r-comps but have alzenis's now

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RagingAngel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm gonna guess ABS is not a problem </TD></TR></TABLE>

Angel, I was quoting/replying to Vincent001 who did not state what kind of car he has.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00BaseRacer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Angel, I was quoting/replying to Vincent001 who did not state what kind of car he has. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i got a 91 integra... no abs... i have rota auto x =/ 195-50-15 with goodyear eagle f1 tires... i run hoosier r compound tire at auto x... i think what i have is pretty good but i just want better =/

 

What about just going to ITR calipers?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vincent001 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i am actually contemplating on going with the willwood brake kit... i already have hawk hp+s and rotora slotted rotors and steel braided brake line... i feel it doesn't stop fast enough... idk y maybe its just me... </TD></TR></TABLE>

if its just for autocross, i would upgrade past the hps pads. get an aggressive pad like hp+ or cobalt friction gt-sports. heck, even axxis ultimates get it done at an autocross.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spdracer22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What about just going to ITR calipers?</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lo-Buck EF &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> since you have EX knuckles you can do the oem 11" set up and save money and get larger brake set up (if you need it)</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

I was just looking around and noticed this thread.
Well first off for the street or autocrossing the faster you stop the better right? So why would you steer this guy away from better brakes? Yeah ok if he was broke then maybe yeah offer some ideas but he's got a plan to get the kit with out spending a dime. Race cars have big brakes so why cann't his? The idea is to go as fast as you can for as LONG as you can. May not make sense to some but the better brakes you have the better lap times you'd get, cuz you can go faster longer before slowing down for a turn and someone also said unsprung weight does help too. As for the street, well come the faster you stop the better because it could save you from an accident. Lastly I've seen fricton tests all the brakes you've mentioned and why would you recomend these pads? Anyway numbers from tests don't lie suprisely the best brake pads I've seen number for are the EBC yellowstuffs. Also no dust and no rotor fad. Well just me 2cents.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TopSniper69 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was just looking around and noticed this thread.
Well first off for the street or autocrossing the faster you stop the better right? So why would you steer this guy away from better brakes? Yeah ok if he was broke then maybe yeah offer some ideas but he's got a plan to get the kit with out spending a dime. Race cars have big brakes so why cann't his? The idea is to go as fast as you can for as LONG as you can. May not make sense to some but the better brakes you have the better lap times you'd get, cuz you can go faster longer before slowing down for a turn and someone also said unsprung weight does help too. As for the street, well come the faster you stop the better because it could save you from an accident. Lastly I've seen fricton tests all the brakes you've mentioned and why would you recomend these pads? Anyway numbers from tests don't lie suprisely the best brake pads I've seen number for are the EBC yellowstuffs. Also no dust and no rotor fad. Well just me 2cents.</TD></TR></TABLE>

just curious any links for where you've seen these tests

 

OK I searched all morning and found nothing. I cann't remember where I found it but I do remember that all the pads that everyone says are good aren't as good as the "hype". I guess I knocked them alittle too much because everytime I need to change or upgrade somthing I search like crazy for the best part or the second best if it's way cheaper. Basically you got to go by coefficient of friction and tempature range. The higher the coefficient of friction the better. The tempurature range is the range of tempurature that the pads will work best. The lower the first number the better and the second number depends on you and your needs. Basically the EBC yellowstuffs have a (.6) coefficient of friction which is the highest I've seen for a street/strip pad. The highest of the pads here is only (.4something) which is good but there is better. Stock pads coefficient of friction are always around (.3 - .4). Another plus to the EBC Yellowstuff pads are there is zero warm up needed as with most street/strip pads so when your cruising on the highway at 2am and that dumb deer runs out and you haven't used your brakes in a hour and you slam those brakes the pads are ready to provide maximum stopping power. Lastly for people with nice rims there is zero brake dust(according to EBC) Which I know is bullshit BUT the dust is very minor and has no harsh.......umm stuff that would damage the rim like metal and you can blow off the dust with just a breath unlike normal brake dust that sticks to the rim.

 

Also I forgot to say. Why the hell would you buy cheap rotors and good pads? I hear about people buying cheap rotors with good pads and warp the rotor and try a different pad. Buy WELL KNOWN name brand rotors. Ebc, Brembo, powerslot, etc. Also lastly do your research on tires. Tires are a HUGE help on braking too. Remember summer tires are better in the summer but are like driving on bald tires in temperatures below 70 degrees.....maybe below 60 degrees I cann't remember right now and are a waste of money unless you have 2 sets of rims. 1 for summer with summer tires and 1 for spring, fall ,and winter with all season tires. I like the pirelli Pzero nero M+S for all-seaon and the eagles F1's for summer. Best tires for the price. Lastly suspesion upgrades help braking too.

 

Just run a good pad, and decent set of rotors... Wilwoods on turbo track car, were actually the weak link in the whole setup. There is a reason a wilwood kit cost 700 and the brembo kit runs up to 2k. The calipers are garbage. If you like calipers that explode and shoot boiling hot brake fluid on your red hot rotors and explode into flames... run them

 

I think topsniper was talking about friction coefficient data. Here are some wilwood graphs to look at:
http://brakepads.wilwood.com/02-graphs/index.html

There is one more thing to realise with pad selection and that is the feel (stiffness) of the pad. You could have a very high coefficient pad but if it is soft, it's not going to instill confidence in the driver pressing on a soft pedal. Just pointing out that friction coefficient isn't everything. Unfortunately there isn't very much data on pad material modulus (stiffness) so you have to go by reviews.

spun vtec, I would just upgrade your pads, add some ducting. I run Hawk HP+ for autocross and like them but they sure dust alot. Swapping between those and OEM pads, the difference in the stiffness of the pedal is huge.

triple, what exactly exploded with your calipers? did it leak between the caliper halves?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by triple_s1x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"></TD></TR></TABLE>

I was wanting to post that pic. It started leaking from the bottom bleeders once the brakes warmed up (the bottom ones you don't bleed, so it wasn't a case of not closing them enough). Street driving they were fine, once my boss hopped in the car and started really using the brakes at the track they crapped out.

BTW, I have two complete used Wilwood big brake kits for the 96-00 Civic for sale.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spdracer22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As far at the Willwood setup goes, I've heard some stories about the calipers flexing a lot. I work with a guy who installed a set on his Talon, and had to take them off because when he stepped on the pedal, they would flex and contact the wheel, even with nearly 1/4" clearance when the pedal wasn't pressed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Did your co-worker see this caliper flex when the car was standing still or did it come off the track with scrapes on the caliper and wheel?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by david@didrace.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I was wanting to post that pic. It started leaking from the bottom bleeders once the brakes warmed up (the bottom ones you don't bleed, so it wasn't a case of not closing them enough). </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds like the Wilwood assembly guy could use a torque wrench when installing those bleeders. A good notice to everyone to check themselves.

 

sweet guys thanks for all the advice.

Looks like ill be running the hp+'s this year and keeping my ef- ex-ek si setup. Its alot less dicking around selling stuff anyways.