I plan on tearing into my engine, not me personally but my mechanic, after this HPDE/lapping season. I have on oil comsumption issue and I think it's time for a refresh. I have been following other engine build threads over the past year trying to soak up as much as I can. The most important factor I have to consider is the emissions testing we have up here in Canuckland. My car is subject to an OBD2 scan. So that means no crazy high-comp/lumpy cam 2.0L build. If any codes are thrown then it's an automatic fail and I can't insure the car. The parts I've been eyeballing reflect this unfortunate factor.

Onto the parts I'm considering. The Spoon cams interest me for two reasons: 1) they produce excellent mid-range and 2) they can operate with the stock ECU. I am not stuck on Spoon by any means so if there are other cams available that meet my requirements then feel free to speak up.

Although the Spoon cams do not require a valvetrain upgrade I have no problem upgrading the springs. I would like to rev to 9K so I can avoid shifting or bouncing the rev limiter mid-corner at one of the tracks I attend. I would most likely get springs to match the cams I decide on. Spoon cams with Spoon springs, etc.

I do not see a need to run Ti retainers or change the valves if they are still in good working order. I anyone thinks different please suggest why.

As for the bottom end, I like the JDM ITR pistons. 11:1 compression and OEM reliability. I would go with the .25OB version so I could have the chambers bored out in case there is any scoring going on in there. I don't see a need to run a forged bottom end, change the rods or knife-edge the crank considering the nature of the parts I'm interested in.

Upon inspection of the motor once it is taken apart I would replace any supporting parts that would need replacing like gaskets, seals, bearings, maybe upgrade rod and main bolt to ARP, etc. A new water and oil pump, belt tensioner and anything else that should be new will be.

CURRENT RELAVANT MODS

Comptech Icebox
importbuilders IM w/ outlaw gasket kit
RC 310cc injectors
AEM cam gears
Toda header
Vibrant high flow cat
T1R catback
Hondata s200
plus some other ****

I have pretty much every bolt-on part possible with bone stock internals and I put down 195.5whp last summer after a dyno tuing session. We noticed that the mid-range power actually dropped from my prior tune with the addtion of the IB IM and Toda header and 310cc injectors. Peak whp was a definate improvement though.

GOALS

1) Must be able to pass the OBD2 scan either by using the stock ECU or running an OBD2 stand alone, although I'm not sure what a scope would say while scanning an AEM EMS or PowerFC or if any codes would come up. Any input on that subject would be greatly appreciated .

2) Must have super-dooper mid-range POWA . That's what I'm lacking.
3) Must have great drivability and reliability since it's a DD for me

At this point I am looking for suggestions from others regarding my thinking. Am I on track or WAY off base? Am I forgeting a variable or factor? Did I miss any info that would prevent someone from giving a suggestion?

Thanks for reading
-WR

 

Im guessing you are OBD1 right now with the Hondata s200 so you will need to swap in a stock ECU for emissions? I dunno if a stock ECU will run those injectors without being too rich?

Anyway thats the case, I would say keep the cams stock, go OS CTR or JDM ITR pistons, ARP rod bols, thin head gasket, upgraded valve springs (keep stock retainers), fresh valve job and seals, maybe a light PnP match, light flywheel, and a VAFC. I assume you will be ok with a stock ECU with a mild setup like that but Im only guessing.

I tried to run my car once on a stock ECU with Jun 3's, 440cc injectors, and CTR pistons lol...it didnt go so well. I never got the chance to scan my AEM EMS either so Im not sure what it will say if you try to scan the OBD2 port with a stand alone.

 

Chris, good to see you are thinking of your motor now.

Im sure you are aware of my setup. Its very similar to what you have in mind. Although I opted for head work, the stock head is absolutely fine. I think the "A" spec cams that you are thinking about will not give you the results you are looking for from a cam that compliments your engine.

I would really look into a larger cam w/ more duration as you will gain mid-range as well as top end. As you know, Crescent has had a lot of success w/ the Blox cams and I personally will be running the HSL cams offered by BLOX. I have wanted to try the RM M22 cams due to a vast number of success stories but I think for the price (my price ) there really isn't a way to go wrong. But, story is that if you want powA and a fatty mid-range, I think the spoon cams will leave you disappointed. Per my understanding of the spoon cam, its merely a fattened up ITR cam w/ more duration.

If you are going to be jumping into the block I suggest leaving the cylinders intact. I seriously doubt you have any scoring of the walls as I know how vigilant you are with your car, and maintenance is a often occurring process, for you. This said, I wouldn't bore anything. Further more, the factory manual states that if cross hatches are still visible from the factory hone, you should NOT hone the cylinders. Just give your self a nice break in period for the rings.

Also, bump your compression up by using a 2 layer head gasket. This is very easy to do if you want to use an OEM gasket. Just remove the brass crush fittings w/ a drill and remove either the top or bottom of the gasket. This will bump your CR upto 11.5 with your choice of pistons. If you have the dough, I strongly suggest getting the SPoon ITR pistons... Being balanced (dynamically) and being only slightly more expensive than new JDM-R pistons, you can't go wrong.

In ending, the motor you are thinking of building is, essentially, the motor that I built for my car. And I love it. But do realize that when you start playing w/ the CR of the block as well as cam choices, you WILL need tuning... I just don't feel that a piggy-back unit will yield ALL the power and response you need. However, if you need to maintain the OBD2 compliance then a piggy back is your only choice.

Let me know as Im sure Crescent can work some magic for you.

 

If you are going to replace pistons, I would go with forged pistons over OEM JDM ITR or CTR. You want to try to keep your rotating assembly as light as possible.

If you can afford some downtime, I would probably recommend running an LS crank, forged rods, and forged pistons. You can then sell your used ITR crank and rods to help pay for some of the new parts. If you are going to run the much lighter forged pistons there is no need to run the ITR crank that has the large counter weights. If you run some Eagle H-beam rods they weigh in at 640 grams where you can also run Carrillo rods which weigh in at 330 grams. You can then run some mild cams like Toda A's which will run fine on a stock ECU. If you are also looking for a very inexpensive retainer, the first gen JDM B16A's with automatic tranny's came stock with aluminum retainers. You can usually pick these up very cheap and don't have the same wear problems as titanium.

Good luck with the build

 

Thanx for your input so far y'all.

Passing emissions and reliability are my two most important concerns at this point.

I need to find out if any of the OBD2 compatible standalones will get me through the scan test. Besides AEM EMS and PowerFC is there any others? Will they read just like a stock OBD2 ecu during the scan? If so, then this could open up other avenues for me. I never wanted to have to deal with the ramafications of building a motor and not have it insurable for the street.

So a good streetable build meeting my requirements would be to stick with the stock 81.00 bore, replace the stock pistons and rods with forged pieces and mate them to an LS crank to save weight? What compression should I shoot for? Or does that depend on the cam of choice? I always assumed that the "lumpier" the cam the higher the CR had to be. Correct?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by white rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Besides AEM EMS and PowerFC is there any others? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Possibly Motec.

 

To my knowledge, no standalone will pass the OBD2 scan test.

There use to be a CDN tuner who was able to chip OBD2a ECU's. The chips were the "one time burn" only type and pretty pricey. I never considered that a viable option since it would cost as much as a standalone for a single tune.

In the past, several of us ran a VAFC as our only tuning device with Toda B's. Jack tuned us and we never had any problems. Since that was a piggy-back we passed emissions no problem. I've considered replication this set-up with a plug-n-play adapter for inspection time.

 

I'm really liking Brad's suggestions so far. Lightweight bottom end, cams with that little extra "kick" I'm looking for and, most important, the stock ECU will work at the time of inspection. I do realize that I need to throw my stock injectors back in as well since the stock ECU will have them running lean. That's no problem.

I still don't think I want to go back to a piggy-back OBD2 set-up(VAFC) since I just need to pass the inspection once every 2 years. I would like to go as far as I can without having to disassemble the engine before inspection.

Keep the suggestions coming .

 

So you couldn't still tune with s200/p28 and then when inspection time comes in then just plug in your stock ecu and drive lightly to the inspection station?

I'm looking for insight on this subject also.

 

why LS crank over ITR crank?

what was the ls motor redline at? and what does itr red line at?

it's just weird cuz i know the itr crank and made to run high rpms.. not like the LS ones..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itr1244 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why LS crank over ITR crank?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lighter and a longer stroke.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bradstard &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Lighter and a longer stroke.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And correct me if I am wrong, but the LS crank isn't what limits the redline.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itrSteez &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you couldn't still tune with s200/p28 and then when inspection time comes in then just plug in your stock ecu and drive lightly to the inspection station?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If there isn't a OBD2 standalone that would pass the test scan then YES, this would be my plan. My question now would be "How far could I go and still have the option of running the stock ECU for the inspection without it throwing any codes?"

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itr1244 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why LS crank over ITR crank?

what was the ls motor redline at? and what does itr red line at?

it's just weird cuz i know the itr crank and made to run high rpms.. not like the LS ones..</TD></TR></TABLE>

LS= at or near 7k
ITR = at or near 8400


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Comp97GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And correct me if I am wrong, but the LS crank isn't what limits the redline.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct. The Rods and Rodbolts.

Rod stroke ratio is slightly less optimal than the ITRs. But the ITR crank is a beautiful crank. Most cranks from the R motor that I've are almost perfectly balanced. Along side that, the counter weights help the crank gain the inertia needed to spin to higher rpms...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Comp97GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

And correct me if I am wrong, but the LS crank isn't what limits the redline.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Pretty much correct, but when you get into the 93mm and up cranks, they do tend to cause a lot more wear and tear on the bearings if you rev them pretty high.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Circuit Star-29 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

LS= at or near 7k
ITR = at or near 8400

Rod stroke ratio is slightly less optimal than the ITRs. But the ITR crank is a beautiful crank. Most cranks from the R motor that I've are almost perfectly balanced. Along side that, the counter weights help the crank gain the inertia needed to spin to higher rpms...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, you do not need the larger counter weights when you are not using heavy cast pistons. It all depends on how well it is built. My old car had a B18C5 with an LS crank that saw rev limiter all the time and it was set at 9800 rpms. (That motor was built in fall 2004 and is still running great with out any oil consumption or smoking) The motor saw 10,100 rpms on the dyno. If you run an 87mm crank (GSR or ITR) then you will have a better rod/stroke ratio when compared to the 89mm crank from the LS. You should see slightly more mid-range power from an 89mm crank. I believe Migs just did a motor built for his DC2 and opted for the 89mm crank also.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Comp97GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And correct me if I am wrong, but the LS crank isn't what limits the redline.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, rod bolts are the weakest link in the LS bottom end, but it would have been pointless for Honda to make them any stronger.

The real limiting factor in the LS's redline is that the cylinder head simply doesn't flow well after 7,000 rpm. The cams are mild, the ports small, the valves small and the IM is like a coffee straw compared to the ITR's.

The LS bottom end can take a lot of abuse. It just doesn't need to in an LS motor.

 

why not BC3 if you want more mid-range?

 

I think you’ve been getting some great advice from people who have walked the same path. I would agree that a light bottom end is the way to go.

In Ontario we don’t have to worry about the ODBII scans so my main concerns were simply passing the basic emissions tests. What I have been told is that with my relatively mild build (with Pro1 cams) I should be able to tune the engine to pass the sniff tests.

 

i was not aware of anything else but.. hondata for k20 designed to pass obd scan.

what do you do with the car? an easy way to keep everything reliable and have a great low-mid punch is by turbocharging. no cams/belts/gears/cranks/high rpm/compression/thin gaskets.. say if you keep it at low 200's and its doen right it will be as reliable as it can get. when its time for emmisions, take out wastegate spring, replace injectors/ecu and good to go.

 

Not really a big fan of boosting my engine. Not to say that it wouldn't yield good results, because I'm sure it would. But I would need to tear into the motor anyway to solve the oil comsumption issue so I figured I'd kill tow birds with one stone.

 

Hey Chris,

Long time no see. This is Daniel. How's life? Hope everything is going well for you and your car.

In terms of dealing with aircare, I just want to let you know that you don't have to use stock ecu etc. to pass visual inspection. I took my car to aircare about a year ago and I passed with hondata s100 (p28). My compression is 12.5 and I run Jun 3 cams and header. I used Hytech's Hi Flow Cat and my hondata was tuned by Garage 5.

So, it's still possible to pass aircare using other cams and tuning device if you want to

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Type-Rare#1248 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I took my car to aircare about a year ago and I passed with hondata s100 (p28)</TD></TR></TABLE>

AirCare rules have changed as of Jan/07. Had they remained the same then I wouldn't have this problem. 1998 and newer vehicles are subject to an OBD2 scan. No more rolling dyno emission sniff testing, that's reserved for 1997 and older vehicles.

 

this bothers me about the spoon cams:



taken from here:

http://www.importreview.com/dyno.html


I'd really like to try the jun stage 1 or stage 2 cams for a mild build.....

 

but if you're stuck on allmotor and HAVE to be obd2, then just get a k20R and call it a day with the hondata kpro. your car will do really well around the road course also with that setup... just ask GK!