What's up i just got threw installing my alternator belt becuz it came off becuz my crank pulley came loose, anways i hit the crank with a inpacted an my crank pulley is still moving around from side to side a little bit. my question is do you guys think i need a new crank seal or just go for a unorthodox crank pulley. how well do they work an does anyone have one on there motor thanks.

 

stay away from aftermarket "lightweight"crank pulleys. i would have to see your motor to know what is wrong w/ it but no, dont go out and buy a ur pulley.

 

Well can i post video's on this forum? becuz i can do a real quick video of it an maybe you could help me out with it.

 

figure out why the crank pulley came loose before going out and buying something that likely isnt going to fix the problem.

 

Well should i go find anyother stock pulley an change my crank seal an see if that helps any?

 

the crank seal shouldnt have anything to do with the pulley coming loose, someone correct me if im wrong.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">stay away from aftermarket "lightweight"crank pulleys. i would have to see your motor to know what is wrong w/ it but no, dont go out and buy a ur pulley.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I ran a UR pulley for years.

 

if you take the crank pulley off there is most likely a piece broken out of the key way. It happens from time to time on the h22. Mine did it a month ago. There is a story behind mine but I will leave that alone.

So take it off and check out that it is broken and that you didn't mess up the crank snout. you will need to buy a key way too those are cheap.

I would stay away from the lightweight pulleys because they don't have the stock damper. Thats just my opinion.

If you think your motor is balanced perfectly and that something else will take care of torsional vibrations. Then get the lightweight unorthodoxed.

 

The misconceptions and myths behind crank pulleys and dampers
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1272226

Read this thread and decide for yourself if you think pulley's are worth it. It's a great write-up.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I ran a UR pulley for years.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i also tried one myself several years ago (before i knew any better) on the dyno, but got rid of it after i gained less than 1 whp. and then there are several guys who have tried them for anywhere between a couple weeks and a couple years before breaking the oil pump gear and in some cases the crank. i have seen a few personally and most were daily driven stock motors.

just because some guys get lucky enough to get away w/ them for a while doesnt change the laws of physics and magicaly make the torsional harmonics produced by an internal combustion engine disapear. it only means that those guys have yet to find the "sour spot" in the rpm (frequency) range, and maintain that frequency long enough to cause a major failure. if there is no damper to absorb the harmonics produced, they just travel right back into the crank, back through the oil pump gear only to weaken these parts, leading up to a catostrophic engine faliure in the end.

for the sake of arguing or debating this topic, lets say the laws of physics dont apply and all the scientists as well as all the pro engine builders and racers are wrong and there may not be a risk of any damage. ok, now is it worth using the pulley to "possibly" gain 1 whp maybee 2 at best under a perfect cenario???? anyone who has any kind of decisive thought process ( half a brain) would not have anything to do w/ a UR pulley. then again some guys have to have a little bling on their ride i guess

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i also tried one myself several years ago (before i knew any better) on the dyno, but got rid of it after i gained less than 1 whp. and then there are several guys who have tried them for anywhere between a couple weeks and a couple years before breaking the oil pump gear and in some cases the crank. i have seen a few personally and most were daily driven stock motors.

just because some guys get lucky enough to get away w/ them for a while doesnt change the laws of physics and magicaly make the torsional harmonics produced by an internal combustion engine disapear. it only means that those guys have yet to find the "sour spot" in the rpm (frequency) range, and maintain that frequency long enough to cause a major failure. if there is no damper to absorb the harmonics produced, they just travel right back into the crank, back through the oil pump gear only to weaken these parts, leading up to a catostrophic engine faliure in the end.

for the sake of arguing or debating this topic, lets say the laws of physics dont apply and all the scientists as well as all the pro engine builders and racers are wrong and there may not be a risk of any damage. ok, now is it worth using the pulley to "possibly" gain 1 whp maybee 2 at best under a perfect cenario???? anyone who has any kind of decisive thought process ( half a brain) would not have anything to do w/ a UR pulley. then again some guys have to have a little bling on their ride i guess </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, iI guess I just got lucky Then.

Seriously, I do understand the points made. It is hard to dispute physics.

 

Or you could just read the whole link I read for a much more in depth discussion about the effects. No disrespect to what your saying I just think it's probaly better to keep this in the same thread.

Here is the first post by Innovation, it's quite interesting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For years I had the idea that dampers were a necessity burned into my head. The thought that our honda engines required a damper to control and or absorb torsional vibrations was something I was told and convinced of this by some of the big name and well known engine builders out there. Who was I to argue?

Something that I didnt take into consideration, a lot of these guys I was learning from have V8 backgrounds where dampers are an absolute requirement. Recently, I decided to look into this theory. I called ATI, Fluiamper and Unorthodox Racing and talked to each company a little about the benefits of each respective product. Each company was very informative and extremely helpful with any questions I had regarding their products.

Previous to my research on this topic, I had heard of the horrors of oil pump and bearing failure with underdrive crank pulleys. I searched web board archives for claims of these occurances and came up with something that suprised me. Each person who posted about potential oil pump or bearing failure due to the use of underdrive crank pulleys had never owned or run one themselves. In most cases, they didnt personally know anyone who had either. They were simply repeating what they had been accustom to hearing. Thats exactly what i had done as well. It kind of resembles the theory, or thought in which Columbus ended once and for all hundreds of years ago. "The world is square." Everyone believed the world was square at one time simply because highly respective individuals had said it was, claiming that if you went too far in one direction that you would fall off of the planet. This became an unwritten fact. Although it had never been proven, it became a common thought, therefor it was passed on from person to person. Well, a guy by the name of Christopher Columbus came along and ended all of that square nonsense. Hopefully with a few projects, tests and follow ups we can do the same with the myth of Honda inline four cylinders and harmonic dampers.

Everyone who has run or used an underdrive crank pulley has nothing but good things to say about them. Ive found some who have been running them for as long as 5 years with no problems what so ever.

The more I looked into it, the more interested I became in this subject. So much in fact, that I have aquired a complete set of underdrive pulleys from Unorthodox Racing to use in a project Article I am working on.

Here is a piece of information taken from the Unorthodox website for everyone to look over:

In regards to cranks and dampers:

People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term that is used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications that we offer utilize a counterweight as part of the pulley as these engines are internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that looks similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note that in these applications, this elastomer is somewhat inadequate in size, as well as life span, to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some of the imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, Nissan, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say that with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most who have installed and driven a vehicle with our pulleys will notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is a natural result of replacing the heavy steel crank pulley with a CNC-machined aluminum pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. Also, a true damper is pressed on to the front of the crank, not just bolted on as with most of the application we are all familiar with. Dampers are not necessary on most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. One of the main factors is that motors have switched over to OHC cams. Other factors such as stroke, displacement, inline, V configurations, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

In regards to oil pump failures:

Urban myths have been floating around about Honda oil pumps failing by using an Unorthodox Racing crank pulley/s. The real fact is that these OEM pumps have been failing with AND WITHOUT the use of our pulleys and before our crank pulley/s were available on the market. Also note that these failures are few and far in between.

The Acura/Honda oil pumps are excellent units, but there are a number of reasons for the failures that do occur.

Most of the oil pump failures have been in Acura/Honda B series 1.6/1.8L applications. The Mazda 1.6/1.8L applications have seen a few failures, as well as the new Ford Focus ZETEC in race vehicles. Again, note that on all these applications the oil pump failures have occurred on engines not using our pulley, using the stock crank pulley.

These pump failures can be linked to the following causes. These causes may act individually or in combination to cause the actual failures:

- The gears used in many pumps including those in the Honda B series engines and Mazda Miata engines are of a low-cost powdered metal composition. The factory uses this metal because of its acceptable cost-to-strength ratio. The problem is, these parts are not always deburred properly from the factory and when pushed to their limits can and do fail.

- Many times additional stress is added to the oil pump by using oil thicker than what is specified by the manufacturer. The oil pump and bearing clearances were not designed from the factory to push oil of higher viscosities. This extra stress on the gears, combined with the above mentioned poor deburring process, can attribute to oil pump failure or engine failure

- Another contributing factor to oil pump failures is the weak cast backing plate of the B16/B18 oil pumps. Simple inspection shows that when compared to an H22 oil pump, a screw is not present in a critical location of the plate in the B series pumps. Compound this with the use of a higher viscosity motor oil and poorly deburred pump components and you have the ingredients for an oil pump failure.

- This issue, specific to the Mazda 1.6/1.8L engines, involves the flex of the crankshaft and the lower half of the engine due to the additional stress of a forced induction system (such as a turbo or supercharger). The additional stress produced by forced induction causes flexing of both the block and the crankshaft between the front main bearing and the oil pump. This can also contribute to oil pump failure. Early Miatas were notorious for having crankshaft problems and later models suffered from problems as power is increased significantly.

- Lastly, any failure inside a motor, related to aging components or a poor engine rebuild, can cause the oil pump to fail. ANY particles passing through an oil pump design such as that used in the Honda B series engines will cause damage or failure.

Remember that oil pump failures happen regularly on engines using a factory crank pulley. To help combat these failures, a few steps should be taken to help prolong the life of your oil pump and engine:

- Unless building a race motor with race clearances in mind, you should always use an oil viscosity matching, or as close to the factory recommendations as possible.

- If using a factory oil pump, always have your oil pump components deburred properly. It is recommended you have a competent engine rebuilder handle this

- For those who run dedicated / extreme race vehicles we recommend using an external wet or dry sump oiling system. These systems are designed for the heavy abuse a race engine receives on the track. Remember, the stock oiling systems were designed for factory horsepower levels and can only handle a certain amount of power increase over that level

- Lastly and most obvious, have a competent, trusted machine or performance shop rebuild your precious motor. It only takes one simple mistake to turn a costly engine rebuild into a doorstop

 

ive seen that thread before and im not gonna read through it again or bother to debate the topic. alot of the info stated above is incorrect. HONDA MOTORS DO COME FROM THE FACTORY WITH HARMONIC DAMPERS the stock crank pulley is a harmonic damper period. just because its an inline 4, doesnt keep the crank from flexing and creating harmonics.

if anyone is truly interested in finding out the facts i suggest contacting any of several proffesional engine builders, pro racers, and machine shops for your answers. trust the people who have been doing this all their lives and have first hand experience on this subject. if anyone needs some contact #s let me know and i will dig them up for you. you could also astart a thread in the drag forum as there are some great engine builders over there who specialize in hondas such as Jim Justice among others.

once you find the facts on this topic then maybee make a sticky, until then it seems like nobody but myself and few others in the "prelude" forum will know the truth about dampers. most guys in the "drag" forum already know the facts from experience.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> ive seen that thread before and im not gonna read through it again or bother to debate the topic. alot of the info stated above is incorrect. HONDA MOTORS DO COME FROM THE FACTORY WITH HARMONIC DAMPERS the stock crank pulley is a harmonic damper period. just because its an inline 4, doesnt keep the crank from flexing and creating harmonics.

if anyone is truly interested in finding out the facts i suggest contacting any of several proffesional engine builders, pro racers, and machine shops for your answers. trust the people who have been doing this all their lives and have first hand experience on this subject. if anyone needs some contact #s let me know and i will dig them up for you. you could also astart a thread in the drag forum as there are some great engine builders over there who specialize in hondas such as Jim Justice among others.

once you find the facts on this topic then maybee make a sticky, until then it seems like nobody but myself and few others in the "prelude" forum will know the truth about dampers. most guys in the "drag" forum already know the facts from experience.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I said the same things years ago But I dont know a thing about prelude's or h series motors is what I was told so i dont bother to reply to this subject anymore. I guess its the water in maryland thats making us so stupid

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by md23vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I said the same things years ago But I dont know a thing about prelude's or h series motors is what I was told so i dont bother to reply to this subject anymore. I guess its the water in maryland thats making us so stupid </TD></TR></TABLE>

not me, i drink deer park

were just stupid because everyone else here has more experience building and racing h motors than we do

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

were just stupid because everyone else here has more experience building and racing h motors than we do </TD></TR></TABLE>

Awww.... come on. I know better than that.
You have made more power than I ever have with an H.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Awww.... come on. I know better than that. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i see in your sig. you have been able to make #s close to one of my old n/a h motors. what was the setup?

 

There are people on Preludeonline.com who have firsthand experience with these things causing oil pump failure.

 

I have an Unorthodox Ultra R crank pulley for the H22 that I'd like to sell. Brand new, never installed. Contact me if you're interested.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i see in your sig. you have been able to make #s close to one of my old n/a h motors. what was the setup?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Seriously, I hope I didn't disrespect you in any way.

It was a 2.44ltr 12/1 comp H with Vance and Hines headwork, S2 pro1 cams on S300. Those are tha basics...

I have read a lot of your posts and respect your accomplishments.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alphajesse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are people on Preludeonline.com who have firsthand experience with these things causing oil pump failure.</TD></TR></TABLE>

there are thousands of people w/ first hand experience. and there are plenty more that have been using them w/o breaking yet, but hey if you can get away w/ smoking crack for a while than its not really hurting you right

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2point6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Seriously, I hope I didn't disrespect you in any way.

It was a 2.44ltr 12/1 comp H with Vance and Hines headwork, S2 pro1 cams on S300. Those are tha basics...

I have read a lot of your posts and respect your accomplishments. </TD></TR></TABLE>

its all good. vance and hines huh, congrats on the #s. i think you might need a lighter car though


Modified by Missing Gears at 7:28 PM 1/31/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> ive seen that thread before and im not gonna read through it again or bother to debate the topic. alot of the info stated above is incorrect. HONDA MOTORS DO COME FROM THE FACTORY WITH HARMONIC DAMPERS the stock crank pulley is a harmonic damper period. just because its an inline 4, doesnt keep the crank from flexing and creating harmonics.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow, you make that statement like you had some kind of input into the design of engines at Honda . If I read right in the link above, then NOT all Honda's came with rubber inserts though (CTR)? Also, reading through all 7 pages of the link, at least 13 members that I counted have used these pullies for years with no problems whatsoever?? In fact, only yourself & one other in the whole post report oil pump failure (on a customers car), and I can't see how you can 100% claim that it was the UR pulley that caused this. Don't mechanical pumps seize & fail all over the world every day anyway??? Lastly, if a solid pulley is used, surely any harmonic vibrations would be absorbed by the rubber belts running on the pulley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> if anyone is truly interested in finding out the facts i suggest contacting any of several proffesional engine builders, pro racers, and machine shops for your answers. trust the people who have been doing this all their lives and have first hand experience on this subject. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have done, inculding Honda engine specialists and Honda race engine builders. They all tell me there's no issue with solid pullies... Maybe they were wrong

 

your right i have absolutely no idea what im talking about. but you on the other hand obviously know so much more than i.

i guess i should inform you that the ctr pulley was not a production pulley. thats the problem w/ you reading that info and believing what it said and then quoting it like its a fact or you have some kind of first hand experience w/ it.

you do realize that most of the rest of that info was provided by UNORTHODOX RACING. but let me guess, an aftermarket company would never lie just to sell its products, correct.

i guess i will also let you know that "belts" run off of the crank pulley WILL NOT dampen crankshaft harmonics. just the fact that you said that proves to me that you know absolutely NOTHING about this topic. i would like to know what engine builder you spoke w/ that gave you your info because its all wrong.

i still dont understand why you or anyone else doesnt simply start a thread in the drag forum if you think im not right. ask if honda engines need a harmonic damper and if they came from the factory w/ one?

 

Well I'm not the one making bold statements of fact, like I'm some kind of uber authority on crankshaft pullies.
From what I've read in your posts so far, you've had a customer who's oil pump gave up, and have deduced that the pulley caused this, and have spoken with some fellow engine builders who tell you that solid pullies are bad for your engine. If you've got any more solid evidence than this, then please bring it forward on here and post it up for everyone to see. At the very least please tell us how you determined that the UR pulley was the cause for the pump failure on your customers car?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Missing Gears &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you do realize that most of the rest of that info was provided by UNORTHODOX RACING. but let me guess, an aftermarket company would never lie just to sell its products, correct.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

So I suppose the 13 members who posted they had used these pullies for years without problems, also worked for U.R?