i have some old computer fans (12v) and some bosch relays. I'm thinking of placing them so that they will throw air over my amp since it doesn't have any fans. i probably am going to be getting another one (diamond d3) and putting in underneath something.

anyways, i was wondering how to hook up the fans with the remote wire and the relay.

thanks

 

to wire up the fans you need to get the relay and work out which are the driver coil pins (2) and which are the N/O and Common N/C contacts.

One side of the relay coil goes to ground the other side to the remote switch output of the HU. it a safe practice to put a low value fuse in series with the relay in this line - incase relay coil shorts.

turn on the Head unit and you should hear the relay click as the contacts change over. if you dont you've got the wrong pins on the relay

once this is happening, wire the common of the relay via another fuse to the 12v battery of the car. Wire the NO contact to the positive of the fans. Then wire the negative of the fans to the chassi of the car.

start the car and turn the HU on you should see the fans fire up. turn the HU off and the fans should turn off.

once this is happening your done!

Note i am assuming the car chassi is connected to the negative rail of the battery. and second dont put the fans too close to the audio RCA leads feeding the amplifier as they(fans) can induce unwanted auidable noise and humm.

good luck

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">to wire up the fans you need to get the relay and work out which are the driver coil pins (2) and which are the N/O and Common N/C contacts.

One side of the relay coil goes to ground the other side to the remote switch output of the HU. it a safe practice to put a low value fuse in series with the relay in this line - incase relay coil shorts.

turn on the Head unit and you should hear the relay click as the contacts change over. if you dont you've got the wrong pins on the relay

once this is happening, wire the common of the relay via another fuse to the 12v battery of the car. Wire the NO contact to the positive of the fans. Then wire the negative of the fans to the chassi of the car.

start the car and turn the HU on you should see the fans fire up. turn the HU off and the fans should turn off.

once this is happening your done!

Note i am assuming the car chassi is connected to the negative rail of the battery. and second dont put the fans too close to the audio RCA leads feeding the amplifier as they(fans) can induce unwanted auidable noise and humm.

good luck </TD></TR></TABLE>


thanks, i have a bunch of bosch relays. I think i might even have a paper that tells how to do it if i can find it. But thanks

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and second dont put the fans too close to the audio RCA leads feeding the amplifier as they(fans) can induce unwanted auidable noise and humm. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Computer fans are generally brushless so it's usually not an issue.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sony224422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks, i have a bunch of bosch relays. I think i might even have a paper that tells how to do it if i can find it. But thanks </TD></TR></TABLE>
You only need one relay for this.

 

lol wire it up to ur amp and have a switch on it

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hatch92only &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol wire it up to ur amp and have a switch on it</TD></TR></TABLE>

that defeats the purpose of what i want. i know i could easily do that, but i don't want to have to worry about turning it on and off all the time, when i could just do it with the remote wire. I just don't want to burn out the remote wire output in the headunit since they can't give out alot of power.

and i know i need one haha, i dunno why i said that.

 

Magnetic lines of flux cutting an the low level signal lines feeding the amp may induces edy currents that can manfest as hum on the audio. The same principle applies to running the RCA leads to close to the power cables feeding the amp, or car electrical wiring. this too can generate noise.
NSXxtreme dribbling nonsense


Modified by Jollybandit at 6:16 PM 1/6/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">RCA leads to close to the power cables feeding the amp, or car electrical wiring. this too can generate noise.
NSXxtreme dribbling nonsese</TD></TR></TABLE>
Go jump off a bridge preferably head first.

Love to know how a 180mA fan producing huge magnetic fields that circle around the inductor inside the fan sitting on top of an amp are going to induce a current inside a shielded RCA pluged into the input of an amp MANY inches away.

I can even set a brushless fan right on top of my RCA. Did I get any noise? Got an oscilliscope? Go show me some noise from a brushless fan sitting on top of an RCA. Please post results and prove me wrong

 

Becareful what you ask for

What was Phoenix Gold thinking putting a brushless fan in there?
They must not know what they were doing.




Reference RCA not sitting on fan


RCA sitting right on top of fan


Care to share your results?



Modified by nsxxtreme at 5:17 PM 1/7/2007

 

FTW nexxereme 1 Jollybandit 0

I have cut groves into the side of brushless fans to run audio RCA cables without any noise, even directly behind the fan up against the motor without noise.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sony224422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have some old computer fans (12v) and some bosch relays. I'm thinking of placing them so that they will throw air over my amp since it doesn't have any fans. i probably am going to be getting another one (diamond d3) and putting in underneath something.

anyways, i was wondering how to hook up the fans with the remote wire and the relay.

thanks</TD></TR></TABLE>The only noise you have to worry about is the noise the fans make pushing air.
I would forget about using the HUs remote wire, get a thermo switch, attach it to a heat sink on the amp, use it to control the fans, fans will only be on if the amp is overheating, and that would only be if you are cranking the volume, and you would not be able to hear the physical noise the fan(s) are making. 94

 

you've answereed your own question
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
inside a shielded RCA pluged into the input of an amp MANY inches away.</TD></TR></TABLE>

sheilding (faradays Cage) and spacial separation ( magnetic flux disipates in a square law to distance) diminish the impact. I agree. some fans also have eathed cores to diminish edy currents generated.


yes they do! In the design engineering stage.
with the amp fan it sits over the output mosfet stage separated by another metal plate (shield). not over the preamp stage. and your inverter in your amp power supply is also heavily filtered by all those butterworth filters (RC networks) And If your head unit volume is off the output or is not driven (output at the furthers low end)and hecne tied to ground point via the internal load impedance at both ends i.e the amplifieer and at the source so the effective result is not a true senario.
you have effectivity grounded wire.

yes brushless motors are better than brushed motors in the noise spectrum as there is no white noise splater from changing poles on the commutator and armature(depending on the variety of motor). and
you can purchse specific fans with out of band runing frequencies. that is the operating point of the internal field (in the case of audio) is outside and above the 44Khz of hearing (Niquist critersa )

i suggest you get a general Pc fan (which this guy is talking about) with a complete running amplifier system and remeasure using a signal generator with a sine wave at say 100mv p-p.

You tinker but you fail to comprehend and define the full problem boundaries.

you keep score like its a kids game, but its no game its a dicipline and a science!

Oh by the way 200uS is limits you to a upper frequency of only 5khz need a bit more BW since hearing goes from 20hz to22khz(approx)
and how about we increase the volts per division to get a bigger clearer picture.

you cant decipher anything inteligable from this



Modified by Jollybandit at 11:20 AM 1/7/2007

 

Hold it, that's me keeping score, and I'm no engineer but it looks to me like he is running the audio RCA cable right across the fans motor, as I said I have done more then once without noise.
But there is nothing better then engineers telling me why what I have been doing for the last 20-30 years can't work, or must work a particular way, contrary to the way I know it works in the real world.
It's even better when two engineers contradict each other. it makes for a game that a score should be kept. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's even better when two engineers contradict each other. it makes for a game that a score should be kept. 94</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ones pretending he knows what he talking about.

Trying to make it seem like he knows what he's talking about by jibber jabbing about useless info that isn't needed.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sheilding (faradays Cage) and spacial separation ( magnetic flux disipates in a square law to distance) diminish the impact. I agree. some fans also have eathed cores to diminish edy currents generated. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Oh please blah blah blah.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes they do! In the design engineering stage.
with the amp fan it sits over the output mosfet stage separated by another metal plate (shield). </TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe I should take a pick of a kicker amp with the fan sitting over the main stage of the amplifier. But then we might get some excuse how venis is not aligned with uranis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oh by the way 200uS is limits you to a upper frequency of only 5khz need a bit more BW
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You do agree the fan has a switching device turning mutiple windings on at different times yes? Since this translates to current which is what is needed (AC current) to induce current (noise) into an RCA. You somehow expect this to be running faster then 5khz?

Not only is the RCA sitting across the fan its also sitting across the power inductor which is a much more powerful EMF device

Show me your setup. Honestly I am done wasting my time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would forget about using the HUs remote wire, get a thermo switch, attach it to a heat sink on the amp, use it to control the fans, fans will only be on if the amp is overheating, and that would only be if you are cranking the volume, and you would not be able to hear the physical noise the fan(s) are making. 94</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thermistor is a good idea but beyond the general novices scope. You could create yourself a voltage regulator using the thermistor as part of a voltage divider. This would allow the fan speed to change as the temp changes.

 

obviously you are wasting time- because you dont understand the boundaries of the problem you are trying to replicate.
Depends on the brushless motor it may be spinning at 5khz but what is the field doing per phase per pole per revolution.

Your opinion of me dosn't bother me in the least. And your methods, processes and reasoning are floored. Go back to school and pay attention.

i have nothing further to say as the Blah blah blah shows how ignorant you are of the engineering discipline!

i dont make the rules engineering - but trued and tried practices of those before me in the understanding of science have

the facts are only useless becuasue it dosent suit your arguement.

I have a setup for tinkering at home. but the work enviroment is much more impressive !
1Ghz spectrum analysers, GBIB coupled backbone, hp Generators, 1GHz DSO. And portable Tektronic 100Mhz oscillisocopes.etc. puts your little work bench to shame.

the power inductor of a Car AMPs SMPS operates outside the audiio spectrum. most operate between 33-45Khz . And at the resolution and sample rate you are operating you wouldnt see anything anyway.

Preach your retoritric but is has no sound basis (hehehe)


Modified by Jollybandit at 12:14 PM 1/7/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">obviously you are wasting time- because you dont understand the boundaries of the problem you are trying to replicate.
Depends on the brushless motor it may be spinning at 5khz but what is the field doing per phase per pole per revolution.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So you saying the field is changing faster then the current producing the field?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1Ghz spectrum analysers, GBIB coupled backbone, hp Generators, 1GHz DSO. And portable Tektronic 100Mhz oscillisocopes.etc. puts your little work bench to shame.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Is this a my ***** is bigger then yours thing.

My oscilliscope is 300Mhz and GPIB and has a web server built in. Power supply is also GPIB your point? I have other equipment but since its not needed to show what I am talking about whats the point of showing it? It doesn't matter which range I would have chosen you would have had an excuse. Can noise be induced? Yup sure can. But your not going to induce audible noise from a brushless fan into a set of RCA's. Real world here not theoretical.

Since you have all this equipment you should have no problem posting your own results.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the power inductor of a Car AMPs SMPS operates outside the audiio spectrum. most operate between 33-45Khz </TD></TR></TABLE>
Which was me being devious. Shows me your not a complete moron.
Wouldn't matter that I swept from 250khz down.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 3:49 PM 1/9/2007

 

I'm just acting on the evidance presented. your changing the story again

a motor has a minimum of two pole and the and the commutator is changing to always catch up most motors per revolution have more than 1 pole so in 1 revolution you might get say 8 magnetic field swaps. Comphrend.

Yep i probably can do . but you probably criticize anyway

but explain this why in the audio music industry, and in our office setup to they use 600ohm matched balance line feeds - you know the ones with the cannon XLR sockets.

the answer is to eliminate noise and X-coupling of unwanted signals. for if you feed a balance signal into a differential amp the noise is distributed on both lines and when subtracted are eliminated. Most Car amps are not impedance matched and certainly not balanced line feed.

Its not the size of your anatomy that's the worry it the size of the brain (small)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a motor has a minimum of two pole and the and the commutator is changing to always catch up most motors per revolution have more than 1 pole so in 1 revolution you might get say 8 magnetic field swaps. Comphrend.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup only takes onle pole to induce noise since they will not be on at the same time comprehend? If they were the motor would not spin.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
but explain this why in the audio music industry, and in our office setup to they use 600ohm matched balance line feeds - you know the ones with the cannon XLR sockets.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Impedence matched lines are used to keep the signal from bouncing back to the source. Ensures that the entire signal is transmitted and not reflected. Becomes more important as the speed increase or your trying to be over paranoid.

Balanced lines are use for the reason you mentioned. In a noisy environment the idea is that the noise will be transmitted across both lines and ommited. Again useless info for the discussion at hand.

Your point?

Honestly you sound like a tech.

 

that's right! but if your not looking at the correct region you wont find or draw right conclusions.

morons there the one's who ride like idiots on motorbikes???? right !!!

you talking RF or audio? you don't get bounce back you are looking for maximum power transfer from the source ( Thevnien theory)

you havent even qualified as far a a tech. Ore you'd see the errors in your ways.

Enough free education for the student this week...he needs to study some more. ( and im not the student)

goodbye


Modified by Jollybandit at 12:49 PM 1/7/2007

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thats right! but if your not looking at the correct region you wont find or draw right conclusions.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup agreed, wouldn't matter if I said I swept from 250Khz down.

Or the fact that an Installer has stated they've never heard any noise. Bust maybe his ears not sensitive down to a few pico volts.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jollybandit &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">morrons there the one's who ride like idiots on motorbikes???? right !!! </TD></TR></TABLE>
Somehow you know how I ride?
Dont have the street bike anymore never had anytime to ride it. Bought dirtbikes instead. Ok I am bored now going to take the GF out.

Have a good one and feel free to post your results. Hows New Zealand by the way warm?

 

Like i said i was acting on the evidence you presented. and Now you change the stoy!

should someone like you be allowed to have a girlfriend let alone breed. Probably what he calls his dirt bike GF

goodbye


Modified by Jollybandit at 4:42 PM 1/7/2007

 

Those provided photo's for those who are not in the Know suffer from some fundamental foors.
To perform an adequate test you need to inject a signal from a clean source like a function generator. choose a fundamental frequency like a 1Khz sine wave @ 100mv p-p and inject into an amplifier with the gains pots set at optimun of 3/4 and fioltering turned off. the Amp needs to be terminated into a Resisteive load capable of handeling the delivered power.

place the fan neear on on the Feed signal line. and the Oscilliscope goes accross the resistive loadload

These are required for two reasons
!) any noise will impose on the initial clean sine signal and can be seen as it is <U>above the noise floor </U>
2) amp is running at optium performance as there is correct impedance matching

then you gat a true reflection of interference level....oh and you need to set the Oscilliscope to the correct settings.....looking at input and output simitaneously ...configured say 5 to 50usec and .2 V/ div for the channel monitoring the output of the amp

I dont see any of that occuring in the evidence provided....elementary & fundamental stuff

 

uh dude, i doubt i'd hear noise anyways since its going on my sub amp.

And FCM i'd do the thermo thing, but i don't need to worry about any noise because its going to be in my trunk. My amp doesn't over heat, but i'd feel better anyways if air was being moved over it since it doesn't have a fan in it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sony224422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">uh dude, i doubt i'd hear noise anyways since its going on my sub amp. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You wont hear any noise he's a troll that lacks attention in his personel life.

You know those egineers you hear about that think they know everything but dont. They talk as if they know something then keep talking and keep talking at the end of the day they still haven't figured out how to tie there shoe but they can calculate the angular velocity it takes to make the bows. This would be one of those.

 

A segment from the Alpine Installers manual
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

0 Installation Method for the Shielding of Car Noise

Introduction
Measures against car noise are very important for delivering the best perform¬ance from your audio system. In view of this, this product should be installed properly to suppress the effects of car noise.
Here we present a basic installation method for suppressing car noise.

Keeps the equipment away from the car harness. (Fig. A)
The car harness which is wired throughout the car might be exposed to the entrance of noise from the various electrical parts in the car.
A basic audio installation practice is to install the main component away from the car harness and wire it at that location.

Car

Fig. A

Do not have the power system and the signal system close together. (Fig. B)
When making a now audio wiring installation, a basic practice is to do the wiring as far away from the battery power cable as possible.
If wired together, the noise will enter the RCA cable from the battery power
supply.
Audio Battery Cable (Power Supply)

Fig. B

Battery mu~ uadie koignai) Amplifier

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry No pics. just took the text. If car cable are an issue, so can a fan.

my qualified colleagues just laugh at nsxxtreem repertoire.

Obvisouly missed those lectures on black box testing...maybe the whole 4 years of university!

probably got a complex, so why worry taking the dipers of the baby he still dribble and crap on!

so im taking this advice. Do what ever you think mate.....honestly , i wont provoke your limited intelligence with wisdom beyond you comphrension

i have never claimed that i know everthing, - no one ever does, life is a perpetual learning curve, and this person has a lot of learning to do

maybe if he get a qualification, and a real job, publishes a few papers, or produces some commercially successful product...then he might have learned the lesson of reading and comphrending and think before one mouths OFF