Hi guys. i about to begin final assemblely on my engine and i wanted to get the main and rod bearings coated.
now i am alittle impatient and i really do not feel like waiting another week to get this done.
will i notice a difference without the coating or is it worth the extra time to send it out?
also worried about it wearing out in a daily driver. the engine should see about 60,000 miles before a inspection(that only if a problem occurs) if everything run ok at 60,000 then i wont even tear it apart. would the coating last for that many miles?
i am generally looking to see it the coating is worth it

 

What kind of coating? The stock bearings are pretty good.

 

As far as I can see...there's no need for it in your build. It's a stock bottom end(?) and the A4 already has 55mm mains.

 

97 with 50mm mains.


"Dry film lubricant that is technically engineered to withstand extreme performance pressure. Using CT-1 coated engine bearings increases horsepower and efficiency, extends bearing life and protects your investment.
Engines overheating to the point of oil "breakdown" have avoided total destruction of expensive components such a blocks, rods and crankshafts due to the secondary lubrication provided by the .0002 and .0004 inch layer of CT-1. "

quoted from the site


Modified by alterdcreations at 8:26 AM 12/14/2006

 

Something I cam across taken from an article on AUTOMOTIVE ENGINEERING magazine

Honda's race-bred connecting rod bearing

Honda's new 1.8-liter VTEC engine for the updated, top-of-the-range Integra model attains an extremely high piston speed, 23.3 m/s at 8000 rpm, which matches that of the company's Formula One racing engine. This far exceeds a normally accepted ceiling of 21 m/s for a high-performance road car engine. "If I were to cite a single item that made this high piston speed possible, it is metallurgy," confides a senior engine designer, ["]specifically the connecting rod bearing and the connecting rod material."

To enhance the new Integra's sporty image in a fiercely competetive class, the development team concluded that it would need a high-output, high-revving engine of 1.8-L capacity, aiming at 75 kW/L (132 kW, JIS net) and the capability to rev to as high as 8000 rpm with ample reserves of durability and reliability.

Honda has two L4 engine families that could produce a 1.8-liter displacement. One is the "Accord" block, with 94-mm bore pitch and, currently, 85-mm bore, obtaining 2.0-L with a 88-mm stroke and 2.2 with a 95-mm stroke. This engine family traces its origin from a 1.8-L capacity with a 81.5-mm bore, which should be capable of attaining the targeted high power and rpm. The snag was that would have been 16 mm too wide and 10 kg too heavy for the projected Integra.

The other engine family considered was the "Civic" performance engine group identified by the prefix "B," with 90-mm bore pitch. The B16A, DOHC, variable-valve-timing/-lift VTEC, 1595-cc unit was the top engine of the previous Integra series. This famility also had a 1.8-L version, the standard unit for the U.S. Integra, and in DOHC, 16-valve, non-VTEC form it powers the Japanese-market-only Domani sedan. The B18A, 1834-cc unit has a long stroke of 89 mm and 81-mm bore, which would have increased piston speed to a stratospheric 24-m/sec, which was excessive and simply unattainable.

So a new aluminum block was designed for the new engine, designated B18C, for the third-generation Integra, with 85-mm bore and 87.2-mm stroke, obtaining 1787 cc. The block has siamesed, cast-iron, dry liners cast in. Nos. 2, 3, and 4 lower bearing caps/carriers are tied by an aluminum bridge to reinforce this critical area.

The VTEC cylinder head is newly cast for the B18C; however, its valvetrain is shared with the B18A unit, including 33-mm-diameter intake and 28-mm-diameter exhaust valves, either having a 5.5-mm lift. The VTEC is combined with a variable-length induction system that effectively produces three torque curves which the engine rides on in its rpm range. For the promise of combining ample low- and mid-range torque and high-speed power, the B16A VTEC was sometimes criticized for its shortage of low-end pulling power. The bigger B18C has rectified this shortcoming with a flatter torque curve–a combination of three curves–which peaks at 6200 rpm, 1000 rpm lower than the smaller unit's, and at 3000 rpm the engine produces 5% higher torque.

Two and a half years ago, when the engine team began developing the new 1.8-L VTEC engine, it had to limit its highest sustainable speed to 7500 rpm and maximum power output to 125 kW. "Our initial reaction was, 'The senior Prelude's 2.0-L VTEC's limit is 7400. So it should be high enough,'" says the senior engineer. Obstacles were known to us. "Stroking of the 1.6-L engine by 19% to obtain 1.8-L would have been accompanied by a 20% increase in load of such vital components as the crankshaft. Our data on the 1.6-L's crankshaft indicated that it would not stand up to that kind of load. Nor would the connecting-rod bearing metal." Widening the bearing metal would have made it withstand the load, but that would have further reduced the crankshaft's strength, which had to accommodate the wider bearings within a set length. Attainable and allowable piston speed is really determined by the fine balance between the crankshaft and connecting-rod bearing performances.

At about the same time, at another corner of Honda's Wako R&D Center, a group of advanced engine designers and engineers were striving to get another engine to combine high-rpm power and reliability under very demanding operating conditions–Formula One racing. Lack of reliability had for some time been plaguing the naturally aspirated, 3.5-L, V12 engine.

To remedy the problem, a team of Honda metallurgists/engineers created a highly seizure-resistant overlay on the bearing's sliding surface using a unique electrodepositing of tetra-methyl lead, Pb (h00). The highly oriented Pb surface has a composition of myriad minuscule pyramids, which possesses outstanding "wettability" or lubricant-retaining properties. Honda claims it has given a 30% or higher increase in the anti-seizure parameter, PV, than a surface with conventional deposits.

In August 1991, Soichiro Honda passed away. The Wako engineers' way of expressing homage to the late founder was to win the next Formula One race–the Hungarian Grand Prix of that year. The new highly oriented crystal bearings were used in the Honda V12 which propelled a McLaren racer to its long overdue victory.

The beauty of this bearing was that it was cost-competetive. It was subsequently adopted in the Legend's new longitudinal V6 engine. In the B18C, it enabled the engine designers to reduce the connecting-rod bearing width from the B16A's 19.5 to 17.5 mm. Two millimeters shaved off each connecting rod journal is added to the crankshaft webs flanking it, giving the crankshaft the extra strength it needed.

Furthermore, with the new bearing material, Honda was able to revert to a low-vicosity, low-friction lubricant (the smaller B16A VTEC is specified with a higher-viscosity one), that contributes to improved fuel economy.

Another vital item that received Honda metallurgists' attention was the connecting rod. The forged steel alloy rod's chrome content was increased and its carbon content reduced, increasing the alloy's strength by as much as 26%. The longer-stroke rod's weight is the same as the B16A's shorter rod.

 

Damn that that loopy '97 engine! Well all the same when it comes to a stock build...it should be fine on stock bearings. I guess you could do it to sleep at night better though.

 

i am looking that the bearings right now and i dont think a coating will last to long on a daily driver. i was thinking it would help the h series with are prone to spinning the rod bearings in high rpm situations. the redline of my engine is 8000 rpms.

 

How do you know what the redline is when you haven't even built it yet, let alone put it on a dyno to see where it stops making power?

 

I am pretty sure the bearing coatings (aftermarket) don't last too long--how long I don't know. I have always been suspect of bearing coatings--I know there are some bearings from Clevite for domestics that come already coated--but I don't know what to make of them.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 91SiZ6 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you know what the redline is when you haven't even built it yet, let alone put it on a dyno to see where it stops making power?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because a little fairy told me
check out the build. thats the limit i will take it to when i dyno tune it.
7500 rpms everyday and that extra omph when i need it.

and i dont think the coating would last for a daily driver

 

The quote you posted looks like it was from Calico.

Though i dont see a definite need or positive reason for coatings in your application, i dont see a downside.

 

calico
i called swain-tech but they wanted more $$
i thought it would wear off , maybe suitable for a all race engine that would be broken down and rebuilt alot

 

If the crank journals are not supposed to touch the bearing surface (being that there is a layer of oil between the two), what is the benefit?

Sorry for the dumbass question.

 

Most bearing wear occurs at start-up. This cuts down on that initial startup friction. Also, apparently you can run your clearances a bit on the tighter side than you would without a uncoated bearing, reducing the parasitic drag of extra oil. Oh, and if theyre being used in a race application,*supposedly* this cuts down on the number of rebuilds.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Don Lackey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the crank journals are not supposed to touch the bearing surface (being that there is a layer of oil between the two), what is the benefit?

Sorry for the dumbass question.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that would mean that the coating wouldn't wear off.
also when you put a cornering g-force load on a factory oil pan it may starve the engine.
or a mis shift or over rev its less chance of a spun bearing

 

Just an observation I have made with engines that I have used coated bearings in.These were chevy asphalt stock car engines.The bearings looked new after a season but the cranks seemed to have more scratches and scoring than non coated bearing equipped engines.My thought is the fine debris that makes it into the oil scrapes the crank instead of getting embedded into the bearing.This is not that scientific test,more of a passing observation.I would still use a coated bearing in a race engine but maybe not a long mileage street engine.I was seeing some surface fracturing in the non-coated bearings but never in the coated bearings (although the coating may have been hiding it underneath).

 

Good observation NJIN BUILDR, i wonder what calico and swain have to say about the coatings impact on bearing embeddibility.

 

i think they could coat the main and rod journals.
if so then you could possibly reduse fricton loss dramaticly

 

I know other ways to reduce bearing friction other than coating them. Can't disclose otherwise I will be scolded by the gods of engine building.

What are these bearings coating with?

If you are concerned about embedibility of "dirt" of foreign particles then why not run a airfilter? If you don't run an airfilter you should probably look into checking/replacing the bearings at very short intervals regardless of the bearing being coated or not. You can also run bearings with a softer lead-indium overlay such as the famous Vandervell VP-2 material.

A technical question: Is the coating applied over the flash plating of the bearing or is the flash plaiting removed prior to coating?

 

I am currently running calico/acl hx-series coated bearings on both race engines b18b and a 2jz-gte. Two months ago I tore down both motors the bearings showed very little wear and the crank journals look like they where just polished.
Supra was driven often on the street to the local meets.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Don Lackey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know other ways to reduce bearing friction other than coating them. Can't disclose otherwise I will be scolded by the gods of engine building.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you guys don't want to get coated bearings but want to reduce friction I recommend WPC treatment by Micro Rite performance. I use this treatment on all oil pump gears when building engines.

"What is WPC?

WPC is a proven process that has been utilized for many years in the racing and automotive industry. WPC is not a coating, it is a treatment that enhances the surface to reduce friction and strengthen engine parts.

WPC achieves this process by firing ultra fine particles towards the surface of a product at very high speeds. The resulting thermal discharge permanently changes the surface, strengthening the ionic structure and creating a harder more durable final product."


Why is WPC Superior?

"The WPC process is unrivalled in treating engine parts and other surfaces that have contact points of friction. WPC is superior because it is not a coating; it is a permanent surface treatment that reduces friction while strengthening the part. It's unique micro-dimple formation pattern greatly reduces friction and is unmatched by conventional methods of surface treatment.

WPC has the capacity to treat carburised, nitrated and plated parts without noticeable dimensional changes, and, upon completion of treatment, no further modifications are required of the parts. The strength and durability improvement on the surface after the WPC treatment is unsurpassed by any current methods.

Treatable products include steel, aluminum, titanium, copper and brass and soft surfaced bearings. WPC can treat any metallic item in an assembled state."

 

both of you guys

well the questions is
so i am looking for a solution to engine wear and friction surface reduction.


this "famous Vandervell VP-2" last seasons of abuse? calcio and other companies problely use it or the predisesior of it. But will it last for years of abuse? and if it wears off does it do so in unison? leaving the stock honda bearings for additional years of abuse?
also can it also be applied to the crankshaft? on main and rod journials as well as bearings?
you would be running two layers so their would be not metal to metal contact, profideing it last.

and so wait a minute. if i nitrade a honda crank(already nitrated) will it get even stronger?
and this treatment relaxes surface tention the same way that cryo treatment?
or can cryo treatment can be used as a addition?

 

Nitriding can lead to crank failure, i.e. broken crankshaft. Certain nitriding processes are better than others.

 

ok.
but what about running two layer of coatings?
0 friction.
and without the additional nitrating will the "WPC" traetment along with kyro treatment
add to the longevity of mechanical engine parts?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alterdcreations &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi guys. i about to begin final assemblely on my engine and i wanted to get the main and rod bearings coated.
now i am alittle impatient and i really do not feel like waiting another week to get this done.
will i notice a difference without the coating or is it worth the extra time to send it out?
also worried about it wearing out in a daily driver. the engine should see about 60,000 miles before a inspection(that only if a problem occurs) if everything run ok at 60,000 then i wont even tear it apart. would the coating last for that many miles?
i am generally looking to see it the coating is worth it</TD></TR></TABLE>

I see the coatings to be worth it specialy on honda engines which are prone to oil pump failures.

"Engine builders have also seen reduced damage in engines from heat and lubrication-related failures."

About the coating's longetivity

How long will the coatings last?


Calico's CT-1 and CT-3 dry film lubricants are "sacrificial" in nature and eventually wear out. But rather than wearing out the engine part, wearing the coating will save you time and money on expensive engine parts. It is also possible to re-coat and further extend the life of the coated parts at a fraction of the replacement cost (i.e. pistons, etc.).

 

for good info
are their more permant coating solutions?
and when the coating wears, does it do so in unison